Big dhal leather shield 25 inches

francantolin · 6th February 2016, 10:51 PM

Hello,
just found and bought this big dhal shield at flea market for a reasonable small price:

it is 65cm / 25,6 inches diameter and has a weight of 3kg / 6,6 pounds,
unfortunately, no more straps and cushion on the back

looking on internet, I saw that some Rajasthan leather shields have the same kind of bosses but never saw the decoration with these threes ( or plants ?)

Any idea about exact origin and age ?

For the leather, how can we know what kind of animal it come from ? Buffalo ?
has someone a ''magical technique'' for recognize it.
I read that rhino back shield are translucent but I'm not sure it will be the same when painted and lackered.

Thanks

Frankie

BANDOOK · 8th February 2016, 08:13 AM

HI FRANKIE NICE SHIELD AND LUCKY FIND,I THINK ITS FROM GUJARAT, WESTERN INDIA,HERE IS MY EXAMPLE,CHEERS RAJESH

francantolin · 8th February 2016, 06:30 PM

Whaouh !
Really nice collection !!!
Thank you, I'll look for Gujarat shields.
Best wishes

estcrh · 8th February 2016, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

For the leather, how can we know what kind of animal it come from ? Buffalo ?
has someone a ''magical technique'' for recognize it.
I read that rhino back shield are translucent but I'm not sure it will be the same when painted and lackered.

I do not think there is any way to tell the difference when lacquered between, elephant, buffalo and rhino hide.

rand · 21st February 2016, 02:07 PM

Hi,

Your shield certainly is an Indian dhal. The four brass boss'es held on with a brass rivet passing through a brass washer, one of the washers has a flower shape. The shield bosses have a circular padding underneath that does not show too much soiling. The weight of 6.6 lbs seems very high, normally these leather shields are much lighter.

The style of split leaf floral/vine is also Indian displayed in four quadrants. Is unusual to have two such contrasting similar colors, one the circular central medallion and the other the four floral patterns. Often the clear lacquer over a painted area can fade, changing its brightness. Makes me wonder if the four floral designs may have been applied at a different time.

Sometimes you can hold a shield up to light and see through it. Other times you can see and feel surface texture forming erratic plate shapes, other times the surface is smooth and painted/stained opaque. Its amazing how strong the cuirboille technique is for making armor.

rand

Timo Nieminen · 23rd February 2016, 06:05 AM

That weight isn't that unusual for a large shield like this. I don't have a set of weights of Indian hide shields at hand, but here is a Persian one (diameter, weight, other comments):

65cm, 2840g, 16th century, elephant hide, centre gripped
61.5cm, 4500g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped
35.8cm, 1550g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped
42.5cm, 1720g, Safavid, hide, forearm strapped
52cm, 1850g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped
50.5cm, 1580g, Safavid, rhino hide, centre gripped
48cm, 460g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped
47.5cm, 1553g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped
44.5cm, 1760g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped
39.5cm, 2270g, Safavid, steel, centre gripped
40cm, 1380g, Afsharid, rhino hide, forearm strapped
51cm, 1880g, Afsharid, buffalo hide, centre gripped
53cm, 2948g, Afsharid, rhino hide, forearm strapped
51cm, 3270g, Zand, rhino hide, forearm strapped
41.5cm, 1375g, Zand, hide, centre gripped
48cm, 2610g, Qajar, buffalo hide, forearm strapped
65cm, 2840g, Qajar, rhino hide, centre gripped
47cm, 2270g, Qajar, rhino hide, forearm strapped
67.5cm, 2620g, Qajar, rhino hide, forearm strapped
49cm, 2620g, Qajar, buffalo hide, centre gripped
47cm, 2500g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped
39cm, 1960g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped
51.2cm, 2620g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped

Safavid = 1502 to 1796
Afsharid = 1737 to 1802
Zand = 1750 to 1794
Qajar = 1794 to 1925:

francantolin · 25th February 2016, 06:10 AM

Hello,

thank you Timo and Rand for all precious comments !!

Best wishes

Frankie

6th February 2016, 10:51 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 817	Big dhal leather shield 25 inches Hello, just found and bought this big dhal shield at flea market for a reasonable small price: it is 65cm / 25,6 inches diameter and has a weight of 3kg / 6,6 pounds, unfortunately, no more straps and cushion on the back looking on internet, I saw that some Rajasthan leather shields have the same kind of bosses but never saw the decoration with these threes ( or plants ?) Any idea about exact origin and age ? For the leather, how can we know what kind of animal it come from ? Buffalo ? has someone a ''magical technique'' for recognize it. I read that rhino back shield are translucent but I'm not sure it will be the same when painted and lackered. Thanks Frankie Attached Images

8th February 2016, 08:13 AM	#2
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	HI FRANKIE NICE SHIELD AND LUCKY FIND,I THINK ITS FROM GUJARAT, WESTERN INDIA,HERE IS MY EXAMPLE,CHEERS RAJESH Attached Images

21st February 2016, 02:07 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Indian Dhal Hi, Your shield certainly is an Indian dhal. The four brass boss'es held on with a brass rivet passing through a brass washer, one of the washers has a flower shape. The shield bosses have a circular padding underneath that does not show too much soiling. The weight of 6.6 lbs seems very high, normally these leather shields are much lighter. The style of split leaf floral/vine is also Indian displayed in four quadrants. Is unusual to have two such contrasting similar colors, one the circular central medallion and the other the four floral patterns. Often the clear lacquer over a painted area can fade, changing its brightness. Makes me wonder if the four floral designs may have been applied at a different time. Sometimes you can hold a shield up to light and see through it. Other times you can see and feel surface texture forming erratic plate shapes, other times the surface is smooth and painted/stained opaque. Its amazing how strong the cuirboille technique is for making armor. rand

8th February 2016, 06:30 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 817	Whaouh ! Really nice collection !!! Thank you, I'll look for Gujarat shields. Best wishes

23rd February 2016, 06:05 AM	#6
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	That weight isn't that unusual for a large shield like this. I don't have a set of weights of Indian hide shields at hand, but here is a Persian one (diameter, weight, other comments): 65cm, 2840g, 16th century, elephant hide, centre gripped 61.5cm, 4500g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 35.8cm, 1550g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 42.5cm, 1720g, Safavid, hide, forearm strapped 52cm, 1850g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 50.5cm, 1580g, Safavid, rhino hide, centre gripped 48cm, 460g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 47.5cm, 1553g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 44.5cm, 1760g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 39.5cm, 2270g, Safavid, steel, centre gripped 40cm, 1380g, Afsharid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 51cm, 1880g, Afsharid, buffalo hide, centre gripped 53cm, 2948g, Afsharid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 51cm, 3270g, Zand, rhino hide, forearm strapped 41.5cm, 1375g, Zand, hide, centre gripped 48cm, 2610g, Qajar, buffalo hide, forearm strapped 65cm, 2840g, Qajar, rhino hide, centre gripped 47cm, 2270g, Qajar, rhino hide, forearm strapped 67.5cm, 2620g, Qajar, rhino hide, forearm strapped 49cm, 2620g, Qajar, buffalo hide, centre gripped 47cm, 2500g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped 39cm, 1960g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped 51.2cm, 2620g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped Safavid = 1502 to 1796 Afsharid = 1737 to 1802 Zand = 1750 to 1794 Qajar = 1794 to 1925:

25th February 2016, 06:10 AM	#7
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 817	Hello, thank you Timo and Rand for all precious comments !! Best wishes Frankie