Visayan/Moro Dagger - thoughts?

Battara · 17th March 2013, 12:23 AM

Ok.....I picked this up at a local gun and knife show here.

The hilt appears to be narra wood with engraved high quality silver mounts and teeth made of monkey teeth or odd bone. The form seems to be of an early Visayan deity head.

On the back of the head is a crown with a cross on top.

On the silver ferrule there is a flower on both sides.

There is a crossguard made of lower coin silver.

The blade and scabbard, however, are Moro with the blade being laminated in subtle patterns. Again high silver bands on the scabbard.

What are your thoughts on this interesting dagger?

Sajen · 17th March 2013, 11:27 AM

What a beautiful and interesting modified gunong. What a bummer that this dagger can't tell us it's history.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 17th March 2013, 09:42 PM

Yeah, Spunger and I discussed this in person. We wondered if a Visayan went down to live in Moro country, then got this made. Certainly someone who could afford the silver work.

RSWORD · 18th March 2013, 02:45 AM

Jose, your pictures don't really do this one justice. It is much nicer in person than these pictures. Really has a good feel and quality to it.

Battara · 19th March 2013, 01:37 AM

Thank you Rick. I agree - I am not a photographer.

I wish some of our Filipino brothers would weigh in.......

Rick · 19th March 2013, 02:27 AM

What are the dimensions, Jose ?
Agree about the pictures; I thought it was refinished .

Robert · 19th March 2013, 03:52 AM

A very interesting and unusual dagger Jose. I love the carving, the teeth and all the silver work on it.

As I know nothing about this, unfortunately I cannot add anything useful to the discussion. Great find and congratulations on being able to acquire it for your collection.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 19th March 2013, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

What are the dimensions, Jose ?
Agree about the pictures; I thought it was refinished .

Rick and Rick, I may take more pictures and repost them here.

As far as the dimensions are concerned, overall it is 11 inches in scabbard, and the blade is 6 inches.

Spunjer · 19th March 2013, 04:45 AM

real nice dagger, this one. what's amazing are the teeth in it. it appears to be real monkey's teeth!
jose, if i may suggest, do not use flash when you take pictures. rather, place it on a well lit area.
guys, believe me, it looks way better in real life, lol

ibeam · 19th March 2013, 05:36 AM

Jose,

Is the blade chisel ground?

Battara · 25th March 2013, 03:44 AM

Jonathan, it is double edged with a median line down the blade.

I agree Ron, these may really be monkey's teeth!

Here are hopefully better pictures:

kai · 2nd April 2013, 11:39 PM

Hello Jose,

Congrats, this is ... ummm ... sweet...
Don't show it to your dentist though!

Quote:

There is a crossguard made of lower coin silver.

The blade and scabbard, however, are Moro with the blade being laminated in subtle patterns.

I'd love to see it stained with higher contrast.

IMHO this blade is not a Moro punal/gunong - the tip is much more upswept than I have seen in any Moro punal; also the crossguard doesn't look like Moro work and the scabbard bands are not typical either. While there may be some influence/inspiration from the neighbors' weaponry, I'm inclined to believe that this is genuine Visayan craftmanship all over.

Regards,
Kai

kino · 3rd April 2013, 01:44 AM

Jose, Congratulations!!!
I noticed that you were added to the staff.
Don't abuse your power

Battara · 3rd April 2013, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Jose,

Congrats, this is ... ummm ... sweet...
Don't show it to your dentist though!

I'd love to see it stained with higher contrast.

IMHO this blade is not a Moro punal/gunong - the tip is much more upswept than I have seen in any Moro punal; also the crossguard doesn't look like Moro work and the scabbard bands are not typical either. While there may be some influence/inspiration from the neighbors' weaponry, I'm inclined to believe that this is genuine Visayan craftmanship all over.

Regards,
Kai

Kai you bring up some interesting points. I have seen a slight up swept blade on a Moro gunong before, though uncommon. You are right in that the guard is not typical Moro. The scabbard is gunong fashion, and the top band is found like this on older gunongs. I must admit that the bottom scabbard band by itself is atypical, although it is found as part of larger bands on some gunongs. Certainly Moro influence if not Moro outright.

Battara · 3rd April 2013, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Jose, Congratulations!!!
I noticed that you were added to the staff.
Don't abuse your power

Thank you and yes this is a recent development.

I'll try not to let the power go to my head (hehehehehehe

)......

Sajen · 3rd April 2013, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

IMHO this blade is not a Moro punal/gunong - the tip is much more upswept than I have seen in any Moro punal.....

Hello Kai,

have a look to this one from my collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong

Best regards,

Detlef

Robert · 3rd April 2013, 08:40 AM

Hello Detlef, The main difference that I see between your example and Jose's is yours has an extreme drop to the blade starting at the guard before it starts its upward sweep where Jose's does not. This is a very interesting knife in more than just the blade profile as it seems to display influences from more than one area. I like it.
Jose, my congratulations on having the good luck to acquires this very interesting new addition as well as your new forum status.

Best,
Robert

Spunjer · 3rd April 2013, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

IMHO this blade is not a Moro punal/gunong - the tip is much more upswept than I have seen in any Moro punal; also the crossguard doesn't look like Moro work and the scabbard bands are not typical either. While there may be some influence/inspiration from the neighbors' weaponry, I'm inclined to believe that this is genuine Visayan craftmanship all over.

Regards,
Kai

kai, there's as much variation of gunong blades as there are of krises, and no, this particular blade style is not visayan.

Battara · 3rd April 2013, 11:43 PM

Spunger has a great point (get it?

) - variations on gunong blades.

Sajen, I forgot about your gunong example - thank you for brining that back for comparison.

Thank you Robert - I originally turned down the offer due to time constraints and too many irons in the fire. Lew took my place and now he is gone and things have since changed for me. We need the help, and so I am honored that they considered me again. This has been a great forum for me and my main forum. I thought maybe I could give a little back..........

Sajen · 4th April 2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello Detlef, The main difference that I see between your example and Jose's is yours has an extreme drop to the blade starting at the guard before it starts its upward sweep where Jose's does not.

Robert, yes I see the different in the blade shapes as well but only want to say that it is not uncommon to find gunong shapes where the tip is upswept.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 4th April 2013, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Spunger has a great point (get it?

) - variations on gunong blades.

Sajen, I forgot about your gunong example - thank you for brining that back for comparison.

Jose, I am with you and Spunger and think that the blade is a reused gunong blade. Also when my and your blade don't have the complete same shape you can see that the main style is similar.

Also to you my best wishes for your new status.

Best,

Detlef

Battara · 5th April 2013, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Robert, yes I see the different in the blade shapes as well but only want to say that it is not uncommon to find gunong shapes where the tip is upswept.

Once again, Detlef, a good point (like the one on my head

).

Also thank you Detlef - I offer my services to the entire forum.

Robert · 5th April 2013, 05:16 AM

Other that the figural hilt on your dagger the blade profile reminds me more of this one than most of the gunongs that I have seen.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 5th April 2013, 08:53 PM

Yes Robert, this is very close to my blade, including the midian ridge.

BTW - what do you folks think about the crown with a cross in silver on the top back of the head? Don't know what to make of it.

17th March 2013, 12:23 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Visayan/Moro Dagger - thoughts? Ok.....I picked this up at a local gun and knife show here. The hilt appears to be narra wood with engraved high quality silver mounts and teeth made of monkey teeth or odd bone. The form seems to be of an early Visayan deity head. On the back of the head is a crown with a cross on top. On the silver ferrule there is a flower on both sides. There is a crossguard made of lower coin silver. The blade and scabbard, however, are Moro with the blade being laminated in subtle patterns. Again high silver bands on the scabbard. What are your thoughts on this interesting dagger? Attached Images

25th March 2013, 03:44 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Jonathan, it is double edged with a median line down the blade. I agree Ron, these may really be monkey's teeth! Here are hopefully better pictures: Attached Images

5th April 2013, 05:16 AM	#23
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Other that the figural hilt on your dagger the blade profile reminds me more of this one than most of the gunongs that I have seen. Best, Robert Attached Images

17th March 2013, 11:27 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,515	What a beautiful and interesting modified gunong. What a bummer that this dagger can't tell us it's history. Regards, Detlef

17th March 2013, 09:42 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yeah, Spunger and I discussed this in person. We wondered if a Visayan went down to live in Moro country, then got this made. Certainly someone who could afford the silver work.

18th March 2013, 02:45 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Jose, your pictures don't really do this one justice. It is much nicer in person than these pictures. Really has a good feel and quality to it.

19th March 2013, 01:37 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thank you Rick. I agree - I am not a photographer. I wish some of our Filipino brothers would weigh in.......

19th March 2013, 02:27 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	What are the dimensions, Jose ? Agree about the pictures; I thought it was refinished .

19th March 2013, 03:52 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	A very interesting and unusual dagger Jose. I love the carving, the teeth and all the silver work on it. As I know nothing about this, unfortunately I cannot add anything useful to the discussion. Great find and congratulations on being able to acquire it for your collection. Best, Robert

19th March 2013, 04:45 AM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	real nice dagger, this one. what's amazing are the teeth in it. it appears to be real monkey's teeth! jose, if i may suggest, do not use flash when you take pictures. rather, place it on a well lit area. guys, believe me, it looks way better in real life, lol

19th March 2013, 05:36 AM	#10
ibeam Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 134	Jose, Is the blade chisel ground?

3rd April 2013, 01:44 AM	#13
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 975	Jose, Congratulations!!! I noticed that you were added to the staff. Don't abuse your power

3rd April 2013, 08:40 AM	#17
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, The main difference that I see between your example and Jose's is yours has an extreme drop to the blade starting at the guard before it starts its upward sweep where Jose's does not. This is a very interesting knife in more than just the blade profile as it seems to display influences from more than one area. I like it. Jose, my congratulations on having the good luck to acquires this very interesting new addition as well as your new forum status. Best, Robert

3rd April 2013, 11:43 PM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Spunger has a great point (get it? ) - variations on gunong blades. Sajen, I forgot about your gunong example - thank you for brining that back for comparison. Thank you Robert - I originally turned down the offer due to time constraints and too many irons in the fire. Lew took my place and now he is gone and things have since changed for me. We need the help, and so I am honored that they considered me again. This has been a great forum for me and my main forum. I thought maybe I could give a little back..........

5th April 2013, 08:53 PM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes Robert, this is very close to my blade, including the midian ridge. BTW - what do you folks think about the crown with a cross in silver on the top back of the head? Don't know what to make of it.