A Vietnamese question

fernando · 20th September 2009, 10:23 PM

Hi folks,
By mistake, i have posted this thread in the European Armoury Forum.
Here it is in the right place:
Is any of our members a Vietnamese or someone who knows the vietnamese language?
I have a question concerning early firearms and their terminology.
Thanks in advance
Fernando

Jeff Pringle · 22nd September 2009, 10:40 AM

I have several Vietnamese coworkers, what are you hoping to find out?

fernando · 22nd September 2009, 01:49 PM

Thank you Jeff,
It is not an easy question

Let me put you within the context:
According to Pierre Huard/Maurice Durand, in their work CONNAISSANCE DU VIET-NAM (Hanoi: Ecole Francaise de l'Extreme-Orient, 1954), primitive Vietnamese hand cannons were called "sung ma truong". At same time, in a website dedicated to cannon selling, i have noticed that they name Vietnamese hand cannons as of "chong" type.
After this, i have tested a web translating engine, and the closest i got to "sung ma truong" was "súng trýờng". I observed that the meaning of words in vietnamese depends a lot in the accentuation of the letters that compose them, which makes it rather complex for a stranger.
But while i couldn't get a related equivalence for the term "ma", i have no doubt that "súng" is translatable (to english) as "rifle" (a semanthic connotation?), whereas "trýờng" would mean "long".
On the other hand a temptative translation for "Chong" would be (burning) torch; this could (also) be an interpretation for hand cannon/gun . The fact is that in the various chronicles that one can read about the Vietnamese-Chinese ancient conflicts, hand cannons (or hand guns) are referred to as "chuong" or "huochong" or even "shenji chong".
Naturally the Chong variations could be of Chinese ethimology, whereas sung ma truong (or 'phonetized' súng ? trýờng), would be the actual correct vietnamese terminology.
Could you, Jeff, extract the juice of this long story and ask your coleagues whether they are within this matter?
I will understand if they are not familiar with these ethimological problematics, specially if they are not relative to early weapons collecting or history.
Thans a lot in advance.
Fernando

Here is a picture of one of these hand cannons ... obviously the wooden pole is missing.

.

Jeff Pringle · 24th September 2009, 01:11 PM

Rifle, anything longer than a pistol, needs two hands to hold – súng trương

Pistol, revolver - súng lục, súng sáw

Cannon, such as is mounted on a fortification - súng thấn công

My informant (ex-SV military, reasonably good English skills) reports the first two, rifle and pistol, are the same in Vietnamese for ancient and modern weapons; and that the photo looks like the third, cannon although that is supposed to be mounted and not held – he wasn’t really getting the scale of the artifact. He said the ‘ma’ was wrong. It looks to me like ‘chuong’ is the Chinese version of the Vietnamese ‘công’.

fernando · 24th September 2009, 07:51 PM

Thank you so much for your diligence, Jeff.
But then, if he thought the example in the photo was a mountable cannon, he didn't establish the true name for a hand(s) held cannon.
Or perhaps and after all súng trường is the usual name for this type of piece

.

Jeff Pringle · 25th September 2009, 03:29 PM

The impression I got was that ‘súng trương’ is the correct term, that being mounted on a fortification or carriage was an important part of ‘súng thấn công.’

fernando · 25th September 2009, 03:33 PM

So it will be.
Thanks again, Jeff.
Fernando

josh stout · 29th September 2009, 02:09 AM

Just a thought. The "ma" might be from the Chinese for horse.
Josh

fernando · 29th September 2009, 05:09 PM

Thank you Josh,
In fact, i was already given such suggestion; it doesn't make much sense at first sight, but you never know

.
Fernando

20th September 2009, 10:23 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	A Vietnamese question Hi folks, By mistake, i have posted this thread in the European Armoury Forum. Here it is in the right place: Is any of our members a Vietnamese or someone who knows the vietnamese language? I have a question concerning early firearms and their terminology. Thanks in advance Fernando

22nd September 2009, 01:49 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you Jeff, It is not an easy question Let me put you within the context: According to Pierre Huard/Maurice Durand, in their work CONNAISSANCE DU VIET-NAM (Hanoi: Ecole Francaise de l'Extreme-Orient, 1954), primitive Vietnamese hand cannons were called "sung ma truong". At same time, in a website dedicated to cannon selling, i have noticed that they name Vietnamese hand cannons as of "chong" type. After this, i have tested a web translating engine, and the closest i got to "sung ma truong" was "súng trýờng". I observed that the meaning of words in vietnamese depends a lot in the accentuation of the letters that compose them, which makes it rather complex for a stranger. But while i couldn't get a related equivalence for the term "ma", i have no doubt that "súng" is translatable (to english) as "rifle" (a semanthic connotation?), whereas "trýờng" would mean "long". On the other hand a temptative translation for "Chong" would be (burning) torch; this could (also) be an interpretation for hand cannon/gun . The fact is that in the various chronicles that one can read about the Vietnamese-Chinese ancient conflicts, hand cannons (or hand guns) are referred to as "chuong" or "huochong" or even "shenji chong". Naturally the Chong variations could be of Chinese ethimology, whereas sung ma truong (or 'phonetized' súng ? trýờng), would be the actual correct vietnamese terminology. Could you, Jeff, extract the juice of this long story and ask your coleagues whether they are within this matter? I will understand if they are not familiar with these ethimological problematics, specially if they are not relative to early weapons collecting or history. Thans a lot in advance. Fernando Here is a picture of one of these hand cannons ... obviously the wooden pole is missing. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 22nd September 2009 at 07:57 PM. Reason: correction

22nd September 2009, 10:40 AM	#2
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	I have several Vietnamese coworkers, what are you hoping to find out?

24th September 2009, 01:11 PM	#4
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Rifle, anything longer than a pistol, needs two hands to hold – súng trương Pistol, revolver - súng lục, súng sáw Cannon, such as is mounted on a fortification - súng thấn công My informant (ex-SV military, reasonably good English skills) reports the first two, rifle and pistol, are the same in Vietnamese for ancient and modern weapons; and that the photo looks like the third, cannon although that is supposed to be mounted and not held – he wasn’t really getting the scale of the artifact. He said the ‘ma’ was wrong. It looks to me like ‘chuong’ is the Chinese version of the Vietnamese ‘công’.

24th September 2009, 07:51 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you so much for your diligence, Jeff. But then, if he thought the example in the photo was a mountable cannon, he didn't establish the true name for a hand(s) held cannon. Or perhaps and after all súng trường is the usual name for this type of piece .

25th September 2009, 03:29 PM	#6
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The impression I got was that ‘súng trương’ is the correct term, that being mounted on a fortification or carriage was an important part of ‘súng thấn công.’

25th September 2009, 03:33 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	So it will be. Thanks again, Jeff. Fernando

29th September 2009, 02:09 AM	#8
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Just a thought. The "ma" might be from the Chinese for horse. Josh

29th September 2009, 05:09 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you Josh, In fact, i was already given such suggestion; it doesn't make much sense at first sight, but you never know . Fernando