Suhl Wheellock carbin

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

,
I couldn't find the date of 1592 on the barrel in your pictures.

I did some photoshopping on Morten's picture.

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Here are two pictures depicting wheellocks of the 1660's being fired: on top the author firing an original combined wheellock and matchlock musket almost 2o years ago, and a reenactor with his carbine modeled on an original.

Best,
Michael

[Sajen]

Hello,

may I ask when and why the brass and bone inlays added?

Regards,
Detlef

[Morten]

Nice weapons Michael. I should probably start a new thread but I post it here, a frien of mine have wheellock carbine that someday I hope should be mine, but I don't know where it's produced so if someone also can tell me something about this I will be happy. It's not so good pictures of this but you can see the markings and the shape of the stock. It's also have a another shape on the barrel.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello,

may I ask when and why the brass and bone inlays added?

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Those plain wheellock and matchlock guns soon became technically outdated by ca. 1700 and were replaced by flintlocks. The obsolete guns were sold off cheaply in large numbers by the city arsenals, and many noblemen bought them and had them "embellished" in late 16th c. style in Poland and Czechia; they then "decorated" their castles with that stuff that now looked much nicer hanging on the walls than it did before.
Such items, of course, are an absolute "no go" for any serious collector.

Best,
Michael

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Detlef,

Those plain wheellock and matchlock guns soon became technically outdated by ca. 1700 and were replaced by flintlocks. The obsolete guns were sold off cheaply in large numbers by the city arsenals, and many noblemen bought them and had them "embellished" in late 16th c. style in Poland and Czechia; they then "decorated" their castles with that stuff that now looked much nicer hanging on the walls than it did before.
Such items, of course, are an absolute "no go" for any serious collector.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

thank you very much for the full description.

Best regards,
Detlef

[bkp747]

What Fun! I learn something new every time I visit. I particularly look forward to MATCHLOCK'S input, and insight on these ancient weapons, but also appreciate the depth of knowledge of many of the members here. Thanks for the education, and fantastic photos... barry

[Matchlock]

Hi Barry,


Thank you so much for appreciating what I have been striving to achieve over the last 40 years!
It is responses like yours that make me feel that all the toil was worthwhile, and that at least part of my accumulated knowledge will survive and pass.
What is even more is to know that there are some folks out there to whom my work does count and that, in a way, a few people actually need me.
That is a huge reward indeed.

So here is to all of you:
Do not hesitate to address me on special topics and ask me questions. Call me out!


Best as ever,
and with at least some hope for the New Year,

Michael Trömner
Rebenstr. 9
D-93326 Abensberg
Bavaria, Germany

[Marcus den toom]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I did some photoshopping on Morten's picture.

Best,
Michl

Thank you Michl, but i still have doubts about the interpretation of this mark. It might just be my perspective beeing a bit off.. but i can see either a crude 1592 (especially the 5 and 9 are vague) or ISE with the E not in good shape.
The question is if you should read this as other mark SUL? The SUL are stamped within a square and are raised, the ISE is in the same manner. 1592 would be stamped without a boarder/sqaure around it and stamped inwards.

I have no knowledge (beeing 0-5%) on how stamps where made in those days.. i do know it is more common for dates to be stamped inwards without a boarder to highlight them.
Tomorrow there will be a good day to learn a new fact on firearms i feel... Michl, fire away

ps is that musket you fired/flashed by any chance the Montecuccoli?

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Thank you Michl, but i still have doubts about the interpretation of this mark. It might just be my perspective beeing a bit off.. but i can see either a crude 1592 (especially the 5 and 9 are vague) or ISE with the E not in good shape.
The question is if you should read this as other mark SUL? The SUL are stamped within a square and are raised, the ISE is in the same manner. 1592 would be stamped without a boarder/sqaure around it and stamped inwards.

I have no knowledge (beeing 0-5%) on how stamps where made in those days.. i do know it is more common for dates to be stamped inwards without a boarder to highlight them.
Tomorrow there will be a good day to learn a new fact on firearms i feel... Michl, fire away

ps is that musket you fired/flashed by any chance the Montecuccoli?

Good morning, Marcus,

The thing about that spurious date 1591 is dead easy: it was done very dilettantely by some fool who neither knew what cyphers looked like 400 years ago nor could he strike them with a sure hand; all that obviously happened only in the 20th century.

Morten, leave that wheellock carbine of your friend's alone. It is complete rubbish: the lock, stock and trigger guard all are modern replicas ; such wheellocks were built in large numbers in Spainfrom the 1970's-1980's:




One certain Spanish guy still produces them.

The barrel of the specimen on your photos is just some old flintlock barrel.


Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Tomorrow there will be a good day to learn a new fact on firearms i feel... Michl, fire away

ps is that musket you fired/flashed by any chance the Montecuccoli?

No Marcus,

The gun I fired on that photo is my combined wheellock and matchlock musket, made in Suhl, and in large numbers, for Austria from the 1660's until ca. 1690.

Please see my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...k+Suhl+Austria

It is #4 fr0m the right on the images of my chronological row of the development of muskets from ca. 1570 to ca. 1700, to the left of the Montecuccoli, and the one on top of the bottom atts. depicting it together with another specimen from the same series.


Best, Michl

[Morten]

Good morning and thanks again Michael, I will stay away from that one. I also have a wheellock pistol I meen should be from around the 1630's. It has no visible marks , but are marks with a flower and IR (støkel no.3556-3558) on the inside of the lock. It has spring loaded pan cover.
I can see that one of the musket you post a picture of has a similar shape of the lock.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Morten

Good morning and thanks again Michael,
I also have a wheellock pistol I meen should be from around the 1630's. It has no visible marks , but are marks with a flower and IR (støkel no.3556-3558) on the inside of the lock. It has spring loaded pan cover.
I can see that one of the musket you post a picture of has a similar shape of the lock.

Hi Morten,

That wheellock saddle pistol of yours can be dated to ca. 1625-35, and the type of the lock with that bar fixing the wheel centered denotes that it was a very solid construction; I am convinced that it was produced in Suhl, and when you take out the barrel you should detect the Suhl hen and the letters SVL, most probably on the left side of the rear section of the barrel, which is covered by the forestock now.
That pistol survived the Thirty Years War and has doubtlessly seen various battles.
The ramrod does not belong; I will post samples what the original ramrod looked like.
Your pistol still features the longer form, so I dated it pre-1635; from the 1630's, most pistols were notably shorter.

The outline of the lock on your sample is much like the locks of the pair of - shorter! - pistols used by the Swedish King Gustavus Adolphus on the battlefield of Lützen in 1632; a musket ball blew him off his horse but he got killed by rapiers .

See attachments, including the perfect and firing copies of Gustavus Adolphus's pair of pistols wrought by Armin König


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Military wheellock saddle pistols from the 1640's to ca. 1650, the later period of the Thirty Years War (1618-1648).
Note the Suhl marks on the rear left side of the barrel half covered by the stock, and the iron finials of the ramrods threaded for cleaning tools (scourer) or for a worm to remove a ball from the barrel.

Photos copyrighted by the author.

[Matchlock]

Two Dutch carbines, the one on top 1660's, the other ca. 1650-60, the characteristic belly butt stocks reflecting the early Baroque style.
Although both guns were made for horsemen, the peaceful period following the Thirty Years War allowed for some decoration done by carving and/or adding brass studs to the stock, even with military items.
m

[Morten]

Hi Michael thanks for good information and some very good pictures, I spesially like the ones with with the horse.
I knew that the ramrod was not original but it was there when I bought it, and i I thought it looks better with this or without something.
You and all the others that use this forum must have a wonderful Christmas.