Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 23rd June 2019, 09:07 AM   #1
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default Old or new?

A friend of min e has in his collection three pistols that are totylly unknown to me. Such pistols I've never seen before and think that they are not too old and perhaps made in India. Maybe that sombody here is able to help.
corrado26
Attached Images
           
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 09:16 AM   #2
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

Here a further pistol in the same collection
Attached Images
            
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 09:24 AM   #3
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

and here comes the third pistol All three pistols are different but made in the same style.
Attached Images
      
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 10:43 AM   #4
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Hi

You will find a good discussion about these pistols here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gasser
The conclusion was they were Montenegrins but they are not.
It was also said that they were Persians (the lion) but they are not.
They are Turkish Ottoman from Istanbul in the 1900-20ties.
They were made almost exclusively with old parts...
Look at them closely you will see many parts from Ottoman flintlocks.

Kubur
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 02:18 PM   #5
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

Ok, if these pistols are made in Istanbul/Turkey, why were they made in the beginning of the 20th century when muzzleloaders certainly have no longer been the state of the art? Tourist items?
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2019, 03:35 PM   #6
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
Ok, if these pistols are made in Istanbul/Turkey, why were they made in the beginning of the 20th century when muzzleloaders certainly have no longer been the state of the art? Tourist items?
yes
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2019, 06:29 PM   #7
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,621
Default

Hi Corrado.

Somehow I missed this Thread. I agree with Kubur here. Early 20th Century Tourist pistols made to loosely resemble an Ottoman style. Much better quality than the later ones made about the 1950's to today. And as mentioned, often made with a combination of old original parts, and new made parts. While the locks were made functional, none of the primary working parts were hardened and tuned for use as a genuine firearm. Occasionally, one will turn up with an original barrel. But usually they were just steel pipe shaped to the desired fashion. From the top down, the locks on the first and third pistols looked to be 20th Century castings - though well done. But the second pistol has a genuine Turkish/Ottoman lock that was typical of the period style. See below.
Actually, you seldom run across these earlier tourist examples. So they could be considered somewhat collectable in their own rights. I guess by about the 1950's most of the original parts supply had dried up. Thus the introduction of the low grade tourists pistol as shown below, which I think are still be sold today.

You are probably aware of the similar fad during the Victorian Period where vast amounts of copies of guns/blades/armour were made to satisfy the decorator rage in Europe at the time. Often the guns would be made utilizing original locks. The blades and armour show up all the time at auctions.

Rick
Attached Images
 
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2019, 06:32 PM   #8
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,621
Default

Later Tourist Pistol
Attached Images
 
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2019, 09:57 PM   #9
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default more than meets the eye

Mr Corrado,
May I contribute a comment on the very first pistol, shown in several views, at the top of this thread --

I'm glad that you provided images of the lock because from this, I believe the gun to most likely be Indo-Portuguese, perhaps made by an artisan in Goa. Not only from the décor which has elements seen in furnishings and decorative arts from there, but more importantly, the construction of the lock itself.

The flintlock has all the characteristics of a uniquely Portuguese style of flintlock called a fecho de nó ( "knot" lock, unfortunately I do not know the etymology of this rather unusual term -- Fernando, can you help me out?) Characteristics include an internal mainspring with a typical "French" flintlock tumbler and sear arrangement (with half-cock detent, not the external Portuguese "brake" or swiveling safety dog). The odd "humpback" single leaf frizzen spring is also typically and perhaps uniquely Portuguese.

The fecho de nó originated in late 17th cent. Portugal, and is an amalgam of earlier stylistic elements, including the angular miquelet-style cock and the internal components of the mature flintlock. On your example, the styling of the cock has taken a more Frenchified shape, moving away from the normal Hispanicized form.

Quite an interesting thing! Thank you for posting it.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2019, 10:54 PM   #10
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default fecho de nó

Here is an example of a fecho de nó,, dating from the 19th cent., showing the features explained in my prior post. Many Portuguese style flintlock mechanisms (and complete guns using same) of different types were manufactured at Liège for export to the Portuguese colonies; trade to Africa lasted for much of the 19th cent. They are variously marked (or not at all), and were made in a wide range of build quality, from quite good as you seed here, to extremely crude.
Attached Images
  
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2019, 11:15 PM   #11
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default deco filework

I post this one only to note the decorative filework on the edge of the frizzen spring, in comparison to that on the pistol under consideration.

(The typology of this lock has no bearing on the essence of this thread as it is a different breed of cat, similar origin as the above, but a separate style called fecho de três parafusos in Portuguese. Again, a sort of hybrid, having the external form of an earlier type called fecho de molinhas with the innards of a French flintlock sans half cock detent on the tumbler.)
Attached Images
 
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.