like your opinion on this Palembang keris

Alam Shah · 28th October 2011, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Sirek,

yes, in my humble opinion it is a Palembang blade. Look for comparison to the blade of my Palembang keris. I have a second example with nearly the same features.
Nice catch!

Hi Sirek, your long keris seems to be a nice example of a Palembang keris. The shorther keris, although looks crude.. it's a type that can be found around that region.

Sajen, your keris is also nice, but the selut and mendak do not match, imho looking and post #3 and #4. Looking at the blade, the kembang kacang area seems disturbed especially the pamor works, which suggests a repair, perhaps.

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2011, 08:15 AM

Yes, I agree with you Penangsang, but not a derivation, a corruption possibly by a person who did not speak the language.

The "vieled durga" hilt is found in Jawa, where some of the people who carve them simply call them "wadon" :- woman.

They are supposedly found in Bali and I don't know what they're called there.

If we accept the Palembang hilt that started this discussion as a variation of the same type of hilt, they are found in the Palembang area of Sumatra.

In Palembang a dialect of Malay called Musi is spoken. Maybe there is a connection. Maybe.

But before I accept "balu mekabun" as a legitimate local name for this hilt, I would need to see some hard evidence that both the names currently used for this hilt form are not the invention of somebody who was not a part of any S.E. Asian culture.

David · 28th October 2011, 02:01 PM

The wadon hilts of Jawa have a definite female form (ergo the name). Can someone please show me what elements these palembang hilts have that open the door to the same interpretation. I'm just not seeing it. This figure seems much more masculine to me, even if faceless...

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2011, 09:17 PM

I can see no relationship either David, but Mr. Jensen seemed to think that there might be one.

I believe that Mr. Jensen got his ideas on this from Mr. Kerner.

I liked Martin Kerner, I corresponded with him, I found him to be a very polite and civilized human being. His mathematical analysis of early keris is a wonderful piece of work, however, when he wandered into some of the other areas of keris knowledge his ideas did become a little bit peculiar.

Actually, the "balu mekabun" name troubles me more than the "vieled durga" name. Veiled Durga is in English, and as such it could not possibly have been used in any S.E, Asian country, but balu mekabun looks as if it could be a name taken from a Malay dialect or language.

Penangsang offered that it might have come from "balu berkabung", but if it did it is a corruption by a non-Malay speaker:- we simply cannot have "mekabun" coming from "berkabung".

The word "balu" is found in Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Balinese, Old Javanese. In all languages it means "widow".

However I can find no reference to "kabun" which is likely to be the root word, nor "mekabun" in any dictionary of S.E. Asian languages, to which I have access. I do not know the word, friends who are native speakers of Indonesian and several Javanese dialects, as well as Balinese, do not know the word.

I believe that somebody, who might have been Mr. Kerner, or Mr. Jensen, or one of their informants, concocted this description from half remembered or half understood Malay.

I do not believe it is a name that has a local origin.

I will be more than happy to retract this opinion when somebody can offer proof that it is wrong.

Sajen · 29th October 2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Sajen, your keris is also nice, but the selut and mendak do not match, imho looking and post #3 and #4. Looking at the blade, the kembang kacang area seems disturbed especially the pamor works, which suggests a repair, perhaps.

Hello Alam,

yes, I know that mendhak and selut are wrong but I get this keris in this way. Blade was corroded and the hilt in the same form was split. So the blade was washed and etched and I replaced the handle. Until now I don't found a matching selut. I don't think that the kembang kacang is repaired but I agree that it look on the picture like this. BTW gandik area and the top of the gonjo was at some time before gilded.

Regards,

Detlef

28th October 2011, 08:15 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Yes, I agree with you Penangsang, but not a derivation, a corruption possibly by a person who did not speak the language. The "vieled durga" hilt is found in Jawa, where some of the people who carve them simply call them "wadon" :- woman. They are supposedly found in Bali and I don't know what they're called there. If we accept the Palembang hilt that started this discussion as a variation of the same type of hilt, they are found in the Palembang area of Sumatra. In Palembang a dialect of Malay called Musi is spoken. Maybe there is a connection. Maybe. But before I accept "balu mekabun" as a legitimate local name for this hilt, I would need to see some hard evidence that both the names currently used for this hilt form are not the invention of somebody who was not a part of any S.E. Asian culture.

28th October 2011, 02:01 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	The wadon hilts of Jawa have a definite female form (ergo the name). Can someone please show me what elements these palembang hilts have that open the door to the same interpretation. I'm just not seeing it. This figure seems much more masculine to me, even if faceless...

28th October 2011, 09:17 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	I can see no relationship either David, but Mr. Jensen seemed to think that there might be one. I believe that Mr. Jensen got his ideas on this from Mr. Kerner. I liked Martin Kerner, I corresponded with him, I found him to be a very polite and civilized human being. His mathematical analysis of early keris is a wonderful piece of work, however, when he wandered into some of the other areas of keris knowledge his ideas did become a little bit peculiar. Actually, the "balu mekabun" name troubles me more than the "vieled durga" name. Veiled Durga is in English, and as such it could not possibly have been used in any S.E, Asian country, but balu mekabun looks as if it could be a name taken from a Malay dialect or language. Penangsang offered that it might have come from "balu berkabung", but if it did it is a corruption by a non-Malay speaker:- we simply cannot have "mekabun" coming from "berkabung". The word "balu" is found in Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Balinese, Old Javanese. In all languages it means "widow". However I can find no reference to "kabun" which is likely to be the root word, nor "mekabun" in any dictionary of S.E. Asian languages, to which I have access. I do not know the word, friends who are native speakers of Indonesian and several Javanese dialects, as well as Balinese, do not know the word. I believe that somebody, who might have been Mr. Kerner, or Mr. Jensen, or one of their informants, concocted this description from half remembered or half understood Malay. I do not believe it is a name that has a local origin. I will be more than happy to retract this opinion when somebody can offer proof that it is wrong. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 28th October 2011 at 09:46 PM.