Belly Dancer Jambiya

celtan · 12th January 2011, 11:00 PM

Hi guys,

I got a short jambiya witin a metal scabbard and a chain belt, the knife and scabbard delineated by bells, I take it it's a belly dancer knife.

Can't get any info on same. Do they have an specific name?

BR, M

Dom · 13th January 2011, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi guys,

I got a short jambiya witin a metal scabbard and a chain belt, the knife and scabbard delineated by bells, I take it it's a belly dancer knife.

Can't get any info on same. Do they have an specific name?

Hi "celtann"
are you sure that is an ethnic knife ?

for over 25 years I live "Egyptian", married with an Egyptian Lady, and we have residence in Egypt
I dunno what it's like a dagger "said" Egyptian

it's might be a dagger folk, or not belonging to "Egyptian world"

a pic should be welcome for identification
all the best

à +

Dom

celtan · 13th January 2011, 03:08 PM

Hi Dom,

Pics attached. Thanks for the assist. Happy 2011!

Manuel

Lew · 13th January 2011, 03:22 PM

That is a Bagaboo knife from the Philippines not a jambiya. Nice example though.

celtan · 13th January 2011, 03:28 PM

Thanks Lew, now I know where to focus my research.

Best

Manuel Luis Iravedra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

That is a Bagaboo knife from the Philippines not a jambiya. Nice example though.

celtan · 13th January 2011, 03:40 PM

Found +

Women's dagger from Bagobo in South East Mindanao, PI.

Sajen · 13th January 2011, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Darn! Can't find anithing...

The bells and scabbard shape does make it look muslim-arabic. Who and What-for do they use it in Bagabu island?

Hi Celtan,

it's not an island but a ethnic group from the Philippines/Mindanao, look here:
http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Bagobo

I have bought recently a similar knife. This knifes are called Sangi. They coming with wooden sheat, metal sheath or braided sheath as well. I am not 100% certain if it is a Sangi from the Bagobo ethnic group since this knifes are common by some other ethnics also but all Lumad tribes.

Here is mine: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=sangi

Search by keyword " Sangi " and you will find some more. BTW, nice example you have there.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 13th January 2011, 04:28 PM

Yes, that's a nice and decorative high end example. These are generally considered household chore utility knives, but yours looks like it was made for show or for a woman of status...

celtan · 13th January 2011, 04:31 PM

Hi Detlef,

Still, this type of dagger is often described as using wood handles and scabbards. An yet, this one is made of some dark copper alloy, bronze?

The position and numbher of the hawkbells is also intriguing.

Thank you kindly..!

BR

: )

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Celtan,

it's not an island but a ethnic group from the Philippines/Mindanao, look here:
http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Bagobo

I have bought recently a similar knife. This knifes are called Sangi. They coming with wooden sheat, metal sheath or braided sheath as well. I am not 100% certain if it is a Sangi from the Bagobo ethnic group since this knifes are common by some other ethnics also but all Lumad tribes.

Here is mine: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=sangi

Search by keyword " Sangi " and you will find some more. BTW, nice example you have there.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 13th January 2011, 04:33 PM

Here is a link to mine and a few other examples. Some members maintain that these knives were also used by men. All the writing i have seen about them call them a woman's knife and i have yet to see any evidence, photographic or otherwise to counter this. Maybe someone has some photos...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7506

celtan · 13th January 2011, 04:40 PM

Hi David,

Your thread is where I got most of the info from..!

: )

Best

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Here is a link to mine and a few other examples. Some members maintain that these knives were also used by men. All the writing i have seen about them call them a woman's knife and i have yet to see any evidence, photographic or otherwise to counter this. Maybe someone has some photos...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7506

Dom · 13th January 2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Dom,

Pics attached. Thanks for the assist. Happy 2011!

Manuel

don't mention Manuel, and Happy New Year to you too
I'm not surprised now according with Lew explainations
because an Egyptian Jambiya

it was an amazing for me

à +

Dom

Sajen · 13th January 2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Here is a link to mine and a few other examples. Some members maintain that these knives were also used by men. All the writing i have seen about them call them a woman's knife and i have yet to see any evidence, photographic or otherwise to counter this. Maybe someone has some photos...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7506

Hello David,

in this thread Migueldiaz show two pictures: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=sangi

By both is clearly to seen that a man wear a Sangi.

Regards,

Detlef

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2011, 05:21 PM

When I first saw the 'belly dancer' term here, I couldn't help thinking of the bizarre treatise on belly dancing swords which was proposed seriously some years ago, but was really pretty hard to take seriously

However, I suppose when studying weaponry, there is a degree of application that must be considered from the costume and ritual perspective.

With that, it is interesting to see that this item is shown as a womans knife, and from Bagabo, while as also noted, wider range of use must be considered.

These bells are known throughout Asia as 'tiger bells', and while apparantly produced largely in China, they are widely distributed, and thier use is found in many applications...including dance accoutrements. While not of course, 'belly dancing' necessarily, these sound producing bells are found in that as well as many kinds of dancing.

I found the information on these bells when recalling that these were also seen on some kampilan, and in this case, appear to have been regarded as auspicious and attached to the hilts. In the case of these, there do seem to be instances noted in Mindanao ( the knife here is from Bagobo in SE Mindanao), as well as in Indonesia and Malaysia (Sarawak).

In many instances these bells are used in amuletic sense and by shamans, and of course in many cases these are placed on animals, so it seems the uses of these range from novelty to auspicious features.

Attached is a plate furnished by Maurice and a kampilan posted by Gav, both in November, 2009, which I found by using the search feature here.

Sajen · 13th January 2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Detlef,

Still, this type of dagger is often described as using wood handles and scabbards. An yet, this one is made of some dark copper alloy, bronze?

The position and numbher of the hawkbells is also intriguing.

Thank you kindly..!

BR

: )

M

Hi Celtan,

nothing to thank. Maybe your Sangi is from the T'boli or B'laan since this ethnic groups have swords as well with with brass hilts. Search a little bit and you will see what I mean. And here a link where is shown a very similar Sangi like yours: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=Tboli
Again, very nice grab you have done with this knife!

Regards,

Detlef

celtan · 13th January 2011, 07:28 PM

Thanks guys,

I believe it was made late 19th or early 20th C, on account of the chain links on the belt. Seems native Filipinos were handy recycling any metal scraps they could get their hands on.

They also seem to have been very small, the width of the belt being 27". Heck, as a teen I was tall and thin as a reed, and I vaguely recall (very vaguely, as if an impossible dream) having once had a waist-width of 31"...

Or was it used hanging from the shoulder?

Best

M

Sajen · 14th January 2011, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

They also seem to have been very small, the width of the belt being 27". Heck, as a teen I was tall and thin as a reed, and I vaguely recall (very vaguely, as if an impossible dream) having once had a waist-width of 31"...

Or was it used hanging from the shoulder?

Best

M

Celtan,
look to the link I have given in post #13, it seems that they was worn around the waist.

Regards,

Detlef

celtan · 14th January 2011, 03:58 PM

Hi Detleff,

My mistake, I checked their left side, as the post stated, and saw a huge demi-sword. Didn't notice the sangi on the right..!

Thank you again. Best regards.

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Celtan,
look to the link I have given in post #13, it seems that they was worn around the waist.

Regards,

Detlef

celtan · 14th January 2011, 05:03 PM

More references, this one is in Spanish, click on the third knife "identified"( 2nd Philippine Knife)

http://www.etnics.es/identificadas.htm

Also found this older post by Leaf stating the possibility of shoulder usage.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000665.html
Leaf
Senior Member posted 03-27-2003 21:18
There is currently a knife listed as a Sangi in a on line auction. It looks to be more recent then the one at the to of this tread. I have seen old pictures of Bagobo men that appear to be wearing these knives from their shoulders but the clairity is not there to be sure.

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2011, 05:14 PM

I thought I heard bells

celtan · 14th January 2011, 06:52 PM

Yep, from the dancing belly dancer...

: )

Don't tell me that Leaf was one of your former noms de guerre..?

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2011, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Yep, from the dancing belly dancer...

: )

Don't tell me that Leaf was one of your former noms de guerre..?

LOL!
Nope, always been just me. ..never been clever enough to think of all those catchy psuedonyms

always intrigued me what inspired them though. ...kinda like rock bands...now theres some stories!!!

13th January 2011, 03:08 PM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Dom, Pics attached. Thanks for the assist. Happy 2011! Manuel Attached Images

13th January 2011, 03:40 PM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Found + Women's dagger from Bagobo in South East Mindanao, PI. Last edited by celtan; 13th January 2011 at 04:06 PM.

13th January 2011, 05:21 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,735	When I first saw the 'belly dancer' term here, I couldn't help thinking of the bizarre treatise on belly dancing swords which was proposed seriously some years ago, but was really pretty hard to take seriously However, I suppose when studying weaponry, there is a degree of application that must be considered from the costume and ritual perspective. With that, it is interesting to see that this item is shown as a womans knife, and from Bagabo, while as also noted, wider range of use must be considered. These bells are known throughout Asia as 'tiger bells', and while apparantly produced largely in China, they are widely distributed, and thier use is found in many applications...including dance accoutrements. While not of course, 'belly dancing' necessarily, these sound producing bells are found in that as well as many kinds of dancing. I found the information on these bells when recalling that these were also seen on some kampilan, and in this case, appear to have been regarded as auspicious and attached to the hilts. In the case of these, there do seem to be instances noted in Mindanao ( the knife here is from Bagobo in SE Mindanao), as well as in Indonesia and Malaysia (Sarawak). In many instances these bells are used in amuletic sense and by shamans, and of course in many cases these are placed on animals, so it seems the uses of these range from novelty to auspicious features. Attached is a plate furnished by Maurice and a kampilan posted by Gav, both in November, 2009, which I found by using the search feature here. Attached Images

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12th January 2011, 11:00 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Belly Dancer Jambiya Hi guys, I got a short jambiya witin a metal scabbard and a chain belt, the knife and scabbard delineated by bells, I take it it's a belly dancer knife. Can't get any info on same. Do they have an specific name? BR, M

13th January 2011, 03:22 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	That is a Bagaboo knife from the Philippines not a jambiya. Nice example though.

13th January 2011, 04:28 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Yes, that's a nice and decorative high end example. These are generally considered household chore utility knives, but yours looks like it was made for show or for a woman of status...

13th January 2011, 04:33 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Here is a link to mine and a few other examples. Some members maintain that these knives were also used by men. All the writing i have seen about them call them a woman's knife and i have yet to see any evidence, photographic or otherwise to counter this. Maybe someone has some photos... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7506

13th January 2011, 07:28 PM	#16
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thanks guys, I believe it was made late 19th or early 20th C, on account of the chain links on the belt. Seems native Filipinos were handy recycling any metal scraps they could get their hands on. They also seem to have been very small, the width of the belt being 27". Heck, as a teen I was tall and thin as a reed, and I vaguely recall (very vaguely, as if an impossible dream) having once had a waist-width of 31"... Or was it used hanging from the shoulder? Best M

14th January 2011, 05:03 PM	#19
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	More references, this one is in Spanish, click on the third knife "identified"( 2nd Philippine Knife) http://www.etnics.es/identificadas.htm Also found this older post by Leaf stating the possibility of shoulder usage. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000665.html Leaf Senior Member posted 03-27-2003 21:18 There is currently a knife listed as a Sangi in a on line auction. It looks to be more recent then the one at the to of this tread. I have seen old pictures of Bagobo men that appear to be wearing these knives from their shoulders but the clairity is not there to be sure.

14th January 2011, 05:14 PM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,735	I thought I heard bells

14th January 2011, 06:52 PM	#21
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Yep, from the dancing belly dancer... : ) Don't tell me that Leaf was one of your former noms de guerre..?