Moro Tulip Kris (need Arabic/Jawi translation please)

Battara · 29th January 2015, 12:15 AM

Greetings folks!

I now have this Maguindanao kris I believe from the 1920s. Although the luk curves are sharp, the ganga is separate. No laminations in the blade. The pommel is made of ivory and the mounts are silver (I made the ferrule to match and replace the missing one).

On one side of the blade is a name in Western handwritten script (which I can only make out some of it). On the other side is Arabic or Jawi script. Would someone help me in the translation of the Arabic or Jawi script please? (and also the Western script as well?)

By the way, the script on both sides seems to be made of white metal, odd (and harder to inlay).

Rick · 29th January 2015, 01:51 AM

Very interesting angular point to go along with the sharp luks, Jose .

Battara · 29th January 2015, 04:20 AM

Tru'dat, Rick. I have owned 2 Maguindanao kris in the past that ended in blade points like this, one of which was this one:

Robert · 29th January 2015, 05:45 AM

The tip on the first is even more angular than the tip of the one just posted. While I have seen a few examples very similar to the the second kris posted, this is the first one I have seen where the tip is made with such abrupt angles as those shown on the first piece.
By the way, very nice silverwork on the replacement band, If you had not pointed it out I do not think anyone would have even noticed.

Best,
Robert

Spunjer · 29th January 2015, 06:43 PM

interesting kris! i always associate those pommels as more of a phallic symbol that tulips, lol. i've seen wood, but not ivory. also, i would say that it's older that what you credit it for, jose. turn of the century, at least... nice catch on this one!

regarding the inlay:
can't help you with the Jawi part, but on the western script side, i believe it's a name. if i'm not mistaken, it says: "property of Ron, please return promptly if found". i kid, lol...
seriously, i think it says "J.T. Van Orsdale". J.T., or John Timothy Van Orsdale served under General Woods in Cotabato from 1903 to 1904. he was a colonel, and in charged of the 17th Infantry. after doing his tour, he stayed for another year in Zamboanga. he left mindanao in 1905, and i believe he went to Cuba after that. so going back to the age of this kris, if it's indeed his going away present, that would place this piece around the turn of the century.
another thing; seems to be a common practice back in the day to give a high ranking officer a kris when they leave Mindanao. a similar practice today would be something like this but rather than putting the officer's name on the blade, it's engraved on a plaque. there was another piece that has a name inlayed on it; from Reina Regente i think. i believe it was Ian's piece?
hope this helps

Gustav · 29th January 2015, 06:54 PM

A fantastic provenance. And one more kris, which shows pointy luk already near the turn of the century.

David · 29th January 2015, 07:50 PM

Col. J.T. Van Orsdale circa 1906. He died in 1921.

CharlesS · 29th January 2015, 08:34 PM

Another really fine example Jose, and excellent work on your part. I tend to agree with Ron about the age and think it's at least a little older than you think.

Was there any particular reason you dated it as you did. Perhaps you have some more provenance on it?

Battara · 29th January 2015, 11:52 PM

Thanks Ron for confirming what I discovered today doing my own research: yes Col. J T Orsdale under Gen. Wood. In fact, in 1904 he led a second expedition on the Rio Grande river in Maguindanao country. Thus you are right, this is around the turn of the century.

I wasn't quite sure of the date since on the one hand it has the a mono-steel blade with sharp luks, but on the other hand it has a distinct separate ganga.

Also according to Oliver Pinchot in an email, the Jawi says, " Datu Fi'cha" (spelling of the name might be a little off). I will now look for information for this Maguindanao datu.

I also thank you David for the picture.

And yes - this does add a wrinkle to the sharp look theory.

Yes I am as pleased as punch!

Battara · 30th January 2015, 02:18 AM

After another close examination of the blade, I have determined that the luks are not as sharp as I thought. Therefore, the sharp luk theory still stands.

I had another Maguindanao sword (which was stolen) and that didn't have any laminations either. It too I dated to the turn of the 20th century. So it fits that this piece is also from the turn of the century as well.

Although I haven't yet found a Datu Fi'cha, he may have been one of the lesser datus under the leadership of the great Datu Piang. This is a theory at present. If anyone can assist me in finding record of a Datu Fi'cha, please let me know here or by email.

Gustav · 30th January 2015, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Therefore, the sharp luk theory still stands.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...aranao+sundang, #39, 40.

Spunjer · 30th January 2015, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thanks Ron for confirming what I discovered today doing my own research: yes Col. J T Orsdale under Gen. Wood. In fact, in 1904 he led a second expedition on the Rio Grande river in Maguindanao country. Thus you are right, this is around the turn of the century.

I wasn't quite sure of the date since on the one hand it has the a mono-steel blade with sharp luks, but on the other hand it has a distinct separate ganga.

Also according to Oliver Pinchot in an email, the Jawi says, " Datu Fi'cha" (spelling of the name might be a little off). I will now look for information for this Maguindanao datu.

I also thank you David for the picture.

And yes - this does add a wrinkle to the sharp look theory.

Yes I am as pleased as punch!

1) it's J.T. Van Orsdale

2) regarding the Datu's name: i can't see it myself as Fi'cha. for one thing, there's no "F" nor "C" in the Maguindanaon language, so we can go back to perhaps the name was spelled phonetically. long stretch, but it could meant Piang. you could start your research by looking for how Piang wrote his name in Jawi, or even in Arabic script.

3) regarding sharp seko (btw, luks is indo, seko is Moro. literally, it means "elbow"): again, that's the problem with just one book to go by. theories wrote in it becomes hard, fast rule. thanks for the link, Gustav! i don't have to go searching in my archives, lol

4) here's the link from the old forum i was referring to my original response:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001388.html

David · 30th January 2015, 03:57 PM

Thanks Ron. I was writing quickly. The name has been corrected.
On basing our dating sole upon Cato's ideas i wholly agree. Simply because there is only one fairly comprehensive book on the subject doesn't mean that everything in it is correct. I would also put forth that simply because a blade has a separate gangya is not enough to automatically date it before 1930 either. I'm willing to bet that more than a few higher end blades produced even post-war could have separate gangya.

Battara · 30th January 2015, 04:54 PM

Oh I can agree with both of you. Though most of the pointy luk-ed kris I have seen have been later - however a particular type of pointed luk is what I have seen as later and without separated ganga.

In any case - from Fi'cha to Piang - hmmmm. Anyone else who has experience with Jawi?

Ian · 30th January 2015, 07:08 PM

Very nice find Jose.

Here is a picture from the Library of Congress that appears to show the gentleman in question seated second from left in the front row. This picture is titled "US Army Officers in Mindanao and Sulu Region 1899-1902."

Seated center could be Major General Leonard Wood, which would date this picture to 1903–1905. Van Orsdale and Wood both arrived in Cotabato in August, 1903. Van Orsdale left Mindanao August, 1905 and returned to the US.

Ian.

Sajen · 30th January 2015, 07:17 PM

Hello Jose,

very nice kris with good provenance! And like usual good restore job.

Hope that someone will be able to translate the jawi script.

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 5th February 2015, 11:55 PM

Thank you for your great help folks!

I sent out emails to other members (and former members?) for help with Jawi, but only 1 responded.

Oh well, what I have and what you have provided me is wonderful.

Many thanks again!

Battara · 6th February 2015, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

2) regarding the Datu's name: i can't see it myself as Fi'cha. for one thing, there's no "F" nor "C" in the Maguindanaon language, so we can go back to perhaps the name was spelled phonetically. long stretch, but it could meant Piang. you could start your research by looking for how Piang wrote his name in Jawi, or even in Arabic script.

AND RON WINS THE PRIZE!

(but not the sword.......

)

Got a final Jawi translation from Oliver (he found an link to Jawi, Oliver also reads Arabic) and he translated the name to "Datu Fiang" which in Maguindanao would be "P"iang (no "f" in Maguindanao as Ron mentioned), which means that this piece says and is from:

DATU PIANG! From him to Van Orsdale.

Now we know both the giver and recipient. We know the story and have documentation of both men.

This makes the 2nd sword I own that once belonged to Datu Piang. I am a very happy camper.

Once again my thanks to you folks, and especially to Oliver Pinchot. I bow in all of your presences!

Spunjer · 13th February 2015, 07:52 PM

sorry, a little late coming in this party, but yes, i second the Datu Piang translation, via a good friend of mine.
Col. J.T Van Orsdale was involved in the pursuit of Datu Ali, who, ironically was Datu Piang's son-in-law. Datu Piang was the ultimate politician at that time, siding with the Americans, for financial reasons. it was a custom of his to give foreign dignitaries and VIP's a souvenir, like a kris in this instance. this was intimated to me by Datu Piang's granddaughter. according to her, the Datu would have this room full of krises, lantakas, etc. just for this special reason.
as far as the gentleman who translated the Arabic script:a Maguindanaon friend who's wife is related to Datu Ali. big props in helping me out with this.

Ian, the gentleman in the center is not MG Wood. i'm attaching a picture of the General for future reference. also, i'm including a picture of Datu Ali.

Ian · 13th February 2015, 09:19 PM

Hi Ron:

Yes, I agree, maybe not Major General Wood. I was basing my possible ID on the picture below from the Library of Congress--similar moustache and shape of the face, but with a "number 1" haircut.

However, Wood would have been van Orsdale's commanding officer during the latter's time in Mindanao, and the logical person to occupy front and center of this picture.

Ian.

----------

Spunjer · 13th February 2015, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Ron:

Yes, I agree, maybe not Major General Wood. I was basing my possible ID on the picture below from the Library of Congress--similar moustache and shape of the face, but with a "number 1" haircut.

However, Wood would have been van Orsdale's commanding officer during the latter's time in Mindanao, and the logical person to occupy front and center of this picture.

Ian.

----------

Yes, he was his commander. Interesting, the saga between Datu Ali and MG Wood. Basically, the Datu was a major pain in the neck to Wood for almost two years.
I wonder if that group picture was taken after his stint in Mindanao. he did do a year in Zamboanga after that

Battara · 14th February 2015, 04:33 AM

Thank you Ron for your intercession on this for me. Great info. I bow in your presence as well......

Yes Ali was the son-in-law and it was a grand and royal chase. In my opinion, Wood chose to know less about Moros and Filipinos according to my past readings of his work on the Philippines (very insulting) and on the book Moroland .

Now if only I could get some documentation regarding Piang's giving this to Van Orsdale............

29th January 2015, 12:15 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Moro Tulip Kris (need Arabic/Jawi translation please) Greetings folks! I now have this Maguindanao kris I believe from the 1920s. Although the luk curves are sharp, the ganga is separate. No laminations in the blade. The pommel is made of ivory and the mounts are silver (I made the ferrule to match and replace the missing one). On one side of the blade is a name in Western handwritten script (which I can only make out some of it). On the other side is Arabic or Jawi script. Would someone help me in the translation of the Arabic or Jawi script please? (and also the Western script as well?) By the way, the script on both sides seems to be made of white metal, odd (and harder to inlay). Attached Images

29th January 2015, 07:50 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Col. J.T. Van Orsdale circa 1906. He died in 1921. Attached Images Last edited by David; 30th January 2015 at 03:50 PM.

29th January 2015, 08:34 PM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Another really fine example Jose, and excellent work on your part. I tend to agree with Ron about the age and think it's at least a little older than you think. Was there any particular reason you dated it as you did. Perhaps you have some more provenance on it? Last edited by CharlesS; 30th January 2015 at 12:37 PM.

29th January 2015, 11:52 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thanks Ron for confirming what I discovered today doing my own research: yes Col. J T Orsdale under Gen. Wood. In fact, in 1904 he led a second expedition on the Rio Grande river in Maguindanao country. Thus you are right, this is around the turn of the century. I wasn't quite sure of the date since on the one hand it has the a mono-steel blade with sharp luks, but on the other hand it has a distinct separate ganga. Also according to Oliver Pinchot in an email, the Jawi says, " Datu Fi'cha" (spelling of the name might be a little off). I will now look for information for this Maguindanao datu. I also thank you David for the picture. And yes - this does add a wrinkle to the sharp look theory. Yes I am as pleased as punch! Last edited by Battara; 30th January 2015 at 03:38 AM.

30th January 2015, 02:18 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	After another close examination of the blade, I have determined that the luks are not as sharp as I thought. Therefore, the sharp luk theory still stands. I had another Maguindanao sword (which was stolen) and that didn't have any laminations either. It too I dated to the turn of the 20th century. So it fits that this piece is also from the turn of the century as well. Although I haven't yet found a Datu Fi'cha, he may have been one of the lesser datus under the leadership of the great Datu Piang. This is a theory at present. If anyone can assist me in finding record of a Datu Fi'cha, please let me know here or by email. Last edited by Battara; 30th January 2015 at 03:38 AM.

29th January 2015, 01:51 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Very interesting angular point to go along with the sharp luks, Jose .

29th January 2015, 04:20 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Tru'dat, Rick. I have owned 2 Maguindanao kris in the past that ended in blade points like this, one of which was this one: Attached Images

29th January 2015, 05:45 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The tip on the first is even more angular than the tip of the one just posted. While I have seen a few examples very similar to the the second kris posted, this is the first one I have seen where the tip is made with such abrupt angles as those shown on the first piece. By the way, very nice silverwork on the replacement band, If you had not pointed it out I do not think anyone would have even noticed. Best, Robert

29th January 2015, 06:43 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	interesting kris! i always associate those pommels as more of a phallic symbol that tulips, lol. i've seen wood, but not ivory. also, i would say that it's older that what you credit it for, jose. turn of the century, at least... nice catch on this one! regarding the inlay: can't help you with the Jawi part, but on the western script side, i believe it's a name. if i'm not mistaken, it says: "property of Ron, please return promptly if found". i kid, lol... seriously, i think it says "J.T. Van Orsdale". J.T., or John Timothy Van Orsdale served under General Woods in Cotabato from 1903 to 1904. he was a colonel, and in charged of the 17th Infantry. after doing his tour, he stayed for another year in Zamboanga. he left mindanao in 1905, and i believe he went to Cuba after that. so going back to the age of this kris, if it's indeed his going away present, that would place this piece around the turn of the century. another thing; seems to be a common practice back in the day to give a high ranking officer a kris when they leave Mindanao. a similar practice today would be something like this but rather than putting the officer's name on the blade, it's engraved on a plaque. there was another piece that has a name inlayed on it; from Reina Regente i think. i believe it was Ian's piece? hope this helps

29th January 2015, 06:54 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	A fantastic provenance. And one more kris, which shows pointy luk already near the turn of the century.

30th January 2015, 03:57 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Thanks Ron. I was writing quickly. The name has been corrected. On basing our dating sole upon Cato's ideas i wholly agree. Simply because there is only one fairly comprehensive book on the subject doesn't mean that everything in it is correct. I would also put forth that simply because a blade has a separate gangya is not enough to automatically date it before 1930 either. I'm willing to bet that more than a few higher end blades produced even post-war could have separate gangya.

30th January 2015, 04:54 PM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Oh I can agree with both of you. Though most of the pointy luk-ed kris I have seen have been later - however a particular type of pointed luk is what I have seen as later and without separated ganga. In any case - from Fi'cha to Piang - hmmmm. Anyone else who has experience with Jawi?

30th January 2015, 07:08 PM	#15
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Very nice find Jose. Here is a picture from the Library of Congress that appears to show the gentleman in question seated second from left in the front row. This picture is titled "US Army Officers in Mindanao and Sulu Region 1899-1902." Seated center could be Major General Leonard Wood, which would date this picture to 1903–1905. Van Orsdale and Wood both arrived in Cotabato in August, 1903. Van Orsdale left Mindanao August, 1905 and returned to the US. Ian. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 30th January 2015 at 09:24 PM. Reason: Added bio information

30th January 2015, 07:17 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,469	Hello Jose, very nice kris with good provenance! And like usual good restore job. Hope that someone will be able to translate the jawi script. Regards, Detlef

5th February 2015, 11:55 PM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thank you for your great help folks! I sent out emails to other members (and former members?) for help with Jawi, but only 1 responded. Oh well, what I have and what you have provided me is wonderful. Many thanks again!

13th February 2015, 07:52 PM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	sorry, a little late coming in this party, but yes, i second the Datu Piang translation, via a good friend of mine. Col. J.T Van Orsdale was involved in the pursuit of Datu Ali, who, ironically was Datu Piang's son-in-law. Datu Piang was the ultimate politician at that time, siding with the Americans, for financial reasons. it was a custom of his to give foreign dignitaries and VIP's a souvenir, like a kris in this instance. this was intimated to me by Datu Piang's granddaughter. according to her, the Datu would have this room full of krises, lantakas, etc. just for this special reason. as far as the gentleman who translated the Arabic script:a Maguindanaon friend who's wife is related to Datu Ali. big props in helping me out with this. Ian, the gentleman in the center is not MG Wood. i'm attaching a picture of the General for future reference. also, i'm including a picture of Datu Ali. Attached Images

13th February 2015, 09:19 PM	#20
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Resized picture Hi Ron: Yes, I agree, maybe not Major General Wood. I was basing my possible ID on the picture below from the Library of Congress--similar moustache and shape of the face, but with a "number 1" haircut. However, Wood would have been van Orsdale's commanding officer during the latter's time in Mindanao, and the logical person to occupy front and center of this picture. Ian. ---------- Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 13th February 2015 at 09:31 PM.

14th February 2015, 04:33 AM	#22
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thank you Ron for your intercession on this for me. Great info. I bow in your presence as well...... Yes Ali was the son-in-law and it was a grand and royal chase. In my opinion, Wood chose to know less about Moros and Filipinos according to my past readings of his work on the Philippines (very insulting) and on the book Moroland . Now if only I could get some documentation regarding Piang's giving this to Van Orsdale............