Types of Damascus Pattern

RDGAC · 18th October 2011, 09:17 AM

OK folks, to assuage my curiosity (and to placate Vandoo, whom I can feel poking me with a metaphorical stick in the cause of getting the forum livelier

), I have a question, simply expressed but delivered with contrition. I'm sure this information is elsewhere, but I've not yet found it despite much searching.

What are the different patterns found on items of Damascus steel?

I know of names, and I have read descriptions; I can describe certain patterns (my jezail barrel's "wibbly wobbly swirly things" for instance!), but nonetheless, I have never seen, say, a series of pictures, accompanied by the words: "That is sham-pattern Damascus." So, ladies and gentlemen, if you'd oblige a hopelessly ignorant young fella (and perhaps help those who shall follow us all), I should be... er... obliged.

ALEX · 18th October 2011, 11:10 AM

assuming you're asking about wootz, and not Damascus steel in general...would like to give you a quick wootz collectors advice:-)
there are 2 types of wootz: good wootz (high contrast, bold and active pattern), and bad wootz (low contrast with weak activity and/or losses of pattern). on the picture: second from the top is sham (low contrast) and third is v. good wootz with mechanically added ladder pattern:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...9.fig.2.lg.gif
Granted, there are many other variations and even more opinions. L. Figiel "On Damascus Steel" and Sachse's "Damascus Steel" books cover the topic well, but for wootz the first book is better, get it.... and don't forget to search the forum for various wootz patterns:-) Good luck!

ariel · 18th October 2011, 12:24 PM

An addition: "good" wootz ( high contrast) and "bad" wootz ( low contrast) are considered such only in esthetic terms. Mechanically, they may be soft, brittle, and otherwise defective in technical terms, irrespective of their superficial luster. Wootz is a classic example of beauty being skin-deep. Not for nothing european monosteel blades were prized by the natives in India for their fighting qualities, whereas wootz blades were brought to Europe to be worn on parades and exhibited in the museums. Ironic, isn't it?

A.alnakkas · 18th October 2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

An addition: "good" wootz ( high contrast) and "bad" wootz ( low contrast) are considered such only in esthetic terms. Mechanically, they may be soft, brittle, and otherwise defective in technical terms, irrespective of their superficial luster. Wootz is a classic example of beauty being skin-deep. Not for nothing european monosteel blades were prized by the natives in India for their fighting qualities, whereas wootz blades were brought to Europe to be worn on parades and exhibited in the museums. Ironic, isn't it?

That very much sums up my opinion on wootz. Arabs have valued european blades (especially clauberg) and even put them as superior to some wootz varieties. Though Indian wootz is considered the best for some reason, I heard that the saudi executioner uses indian wootz (Jawhar) blades, but that could be rubbish as I heard it from a random person :-)

On topic: Should we make this with picture examples? Sometimes I have a hard time knowing the difference between Sham (Does this mean "fake" or sham as in the place, the levante?) and low contrast wootz so any pictures and some info would be nice !

Excellent idea :-)

Gt Obach · 18th October 2011, 05:14 PM

Wootz was one of the finest steels of its time ! both beauty and strength
-it does its job well
- so it is reflected in the high prices for these blades

[QUOTE=A.alnakkas]That very much sums up my opinion on wootz. Arabs have valued european blades (especially clauberg) and even put them as superior to some wootz varieties. Though Indian wootz is considered the best for some reason, I heard that the saudi executioner uses indian wootz (Jawhar) blades, but that could be rubbish as I heard it from a random person :-)

yes, Rubbish indeed !... what qualifies that person as an expert in steel.. Nothing !!!

to the Op, what type of damascus steel are we talking about... either patternwelded, or crucible steel ? both a fundamentally different

RDGAC · 18th October 2011, 09:15 PM

Any and all. I address this to everyone, actually: in essence, I'm very, very confused about Damascus and wootz, the relationships between the two, and how one tells the various varieties apart. My ignorance is doubtless, which is annoying since I've a watered barrel of some sort propped up in a tube behind my right shoulder!

- Meredydd

Jens Nordlunde · 20th October 2011, 04:19 PM

Yes Lew, you are right, the blade is pattern welded.

The attached picture shows – to the left pattern welded and to the right wootz.

Jens

18th October 2011, 09:17 AM	#1
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Types of Damascus Pattern OK folks, to assuage my curiosity (and to placate Vandoo, whom I can feel poking me with a metaphorical stick in the cause of getting the forum livelier ), I have a question, simply expressed but delivered with contrition. I'm sure this information is elsewhere, but I've not yet found it despite much searching. What are the different patterns found on items of Damascus steel? I know of names, and I have read descriptions; I can describe certain patterns (my jezail barrel's "wibbly wobbly swirly things" for instance!), but nonetheless, I have never seen, say, a series of pictures, accompanied by the words: "That is sham-pattern Damascus." So, ladies and gentlemen, if you'd oblige a hopelessly ignorant young fella (and perhaps help those who shall follow us all), I should be... er... obliged.

20th October 2011, 04:19 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Yes Lew, you are right, the blade is pattern welded. The attached picture shows – to the left pattern welded and to the right wootz. Jens Attached Images

18th October 2011, 11:10 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	assuming you're asking about wootz, and not Damascus steel in general...would like to give you a quick wootz collectors advice:-) there are 2 types of wootz: good wootz (high contrast, bold and active pattern), and bad wootz (low contrast with weak activity and/or losses of pattern). on the picture: second from the top is sham (low contrast) and third is v. good wootz with mechanically added ladder pattern: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...9.fig.2.lg.gif Granted, there are many other variations and even more opinions. L. Figiel "On Damascus Steel" and Sachse's "Damascus Steel" books cover the topic well, but for wootz the first book is better, get it.... and don't forget to search the forum for various wootz patterns:-) Good luck!

18th October 2011, 12:24 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	An addition: "good" wootz ( high contrast) and "bad" wootz ( low contrast) are considered such only in esthetic terms. Mechanically, they may be soft, brittle, and otherwise defective in technical terms, irrespective of their superficial luster. Wootz is a classic example of beauty being skin-deep. Not for nothing european monosteel blades were prized by the natives in India for their fighting qualities, whereas wootz blades were brought to Europe to be worn on parades and exhibited in the museums. Ironic, isn't it?

18th October 2011, 05:14 PM	#5
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Wootz was one of the finest steels of its time ! both beauty and strength -it does its job well - so it is reflected in the high prices for these blades [QUOTE=A.alnakkas]That very much sums up my opinion on wootz. Arabs have valued european blades (especially clauberg) and even put them as superior to some wootz varieties. Though Indian wootz is considered the best for some reason, I heard that the saudi executioner uses indian wootz (Jawhar) blades, but that could be rubbish as I heard it from a random person :-) yes, Rubbish indeed !... what qualifies that person as an expert in steel.. Nothing !!! to the Op, what type of damascus steel are we talking about... either patternwelded, or crucible steel ? both a fundamentally different

18th October 2011, 09:15 PM	#6
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Any and all. I address this to everyone, actually: in essence, I'm very, very confused about Damascus and wootz, the relationships between the two, and how one tells the various varieties apart. My ignorance is doubtless, which is annoying since I've a watered barrel of some sort propped up in a tube behind my right shoulder! - Meredydd