Garuda Kris

[SanibelSwassa]

Will work on getting a few pics as requested.

Working theory:

Blades from left to right: Maranao (left); Sulu (double fuller with twist core) (middle); Malay (double fuller with twist core) (right)

The weight of the Malay blade(much lighter) and the corse grain of the steel are significantly different from the other two blade. Also the silver wrapping style of the Left most krisÂ’ hilt is a style seen in Malay kris.

With that said input or theories are definitely welcome and appreciated.

A discussion around the Garuda and symbolism is also welcome. The two archaic kris hilt style, carving and form start to give some basis for comparison. If there are other forum members with examples of this style of hilt form I would also encourage posting those for us to all compare and contrast.

SS

[Ian]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

... Working theory:

Blades from left to right: Maranao (left); Sulu (double fuller with twist core) (middle); Malay (double fuller with twist core) (right)
...
SS

I agree that the one on the right may well be Malay in origin. However, the elephant trunk area does closely resemble the Maranao style, and the raised bands on the hilt are also found on Maranao pieces. In my earlier comment, I misidentified the largest one on the left as Maranao--it more closely resembles Maguindanao work in the elephant trunk area (per Robert Cato).

[kino]

SS, amazing collection. I really like that 3 siko example with the octagonal (?), ferrule.
Here’s one that I have but really doesn’t compare to yours.
This one is really small with a brass or some copper alloyed blade. The hilt has a carving of a “Tree of Life”.

[SanibelSwassa]

Wow!! Thank you for sharing the example from your collection. The carving on the hilt is very interesting. There is definitely serious symbolism in this hilt style.

I’m including another example I found in Europe but that isn’t for sale. It also has similar characteristics. Both of the archaic kris have very nice twist cores. Have you checked yours?

[SanibelSwassa]

Here are some additional pics of the two archaics.

[kai]

Hello SS,

Both of the archaic kris have very nice twist cores. Have you checked yours?

Albert's blade is made from a copper alloy - so no pattern welding to be expected.

It also seems to be quite a bit younger, possibly with a recycled hilt/pommel. From the design, the hilt might well be from a similar period as your younger example that you got from Charles.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Ian,

In my earlier comment, I misidentified the largest one on the left as Maranao--it more closely resembles Maguindanao work in the elephant trunk area (per Robert Cato).

Thanks for your clarification - I was already wondering whether you had mixed things up...

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Just getting old, kai. I intended to write Maguindanao originally, but it came out Maranao. Brain and fingers not in sync.

[David]

Can someone explain to me how or why this hilt form has become associated with Garuda. I'm having a hard time seeing it.

[kai]

Hello David,

As mentioned, this is believed to have evolved from the stylised figural hilts.

I believe the notion got stuck from old western keris literature speculating on a possible relationship of these "bird-like" hilts and Garuda. Among a bunch of problems with this assumption, this is missing the obvious problem that Garuda is not especially favoured by shivaistic followers/rites/symbolism...

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I've noted this mention of "copper alloy".

I do not understand what is meant by this.

With modern technology, yes, we can alloy ferric material with copper.

We can alloy copper with other materials too, but none of these alloys could serve adequately as the blade of a combat weapon.

Even the copper/ferric alloys are not really suitable for weapon use.

I do not know of the use of copper in traditional smithing technology, not in Maritime SE Asia, and in fact, not anywhere in the world.

Are you able to clarify exactly this term "copper alloy" ?

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

Will work on getting a few pics as requested.

Working theory:

Blades from left to right: Maranao (left); Sulu (double fuller with twist core) (middle); Malay (double fuller with twist core) (right)

The weight of the Malay blade(much lighter) and the corse grain of the steel are significantly different from the other two blade. Also the silver wrapping style of the Left most krisÂ’ hilt is a style seen in Malay kris.

With that said input or theories are definitely welcome and appreciated.

A discussion around the Garuda and symbolism is also welcome. The two archaic kris hilt style, carving and form start to give some basis for comparison. If there are other forum members with examples of this style of hilt form I would also encourage posting those for us to all compare and contrast.

SS

It is an interesting quandary indeed.

I've reached out to others who are members here too to discuss these types. Hence my interest in securing what I did this week.

I'm on the fence with a few things, all due to the lack of hard factual evidence.. or at the very least a solid clue to pursue....

Strong Malay influence to my eye, Sulu influenced, for sure, this points to the direction of the provenanced example you secured, the northern coast line of Borneo...

It was certainly a small enclave given the known numbers of the type.

To me, clearly a level of hierarchy/wealth within the locality given the broad variations of hulu quality.

I don't think blade type, given the trade and regional positioning of the area, can be taken as gospel as to original origins of the type.

I feel the devil in the detail lays in the hulu and perhaps the sampir, given that these are what is displayed openly from a cultural point of view. Visually reading this in the day to day context said exactly what it needed to.

Just a little food for thought...

Gav