Interesting Ottoman-Arab Dagger

CharlesS · 14th October 2014, 05:41 PM

This past weekend Rsword, Runjeet, Battara, and myself had a chance to study this interesting dagger. The dagger has a clearly Ottoman inspired hilt of walrus ivory with a blade that has a more Arab or N. African profile. I believe this piece could potentially be from anywhere in the eastern Mediterranean or N. African portions of the 19th century Ottoman Empire. When Battara and I first examined the blade we were convinced it was "faux" damascus steel, but Rsword pointed out to us an example of a little known form or damascus steel mentioned in Manfred Sachse's book Damascus Steel. It is illustrated on page 72(3rd edition) in figure 111. He calls it "chequered mottle (network) damask". Unfortunately, he says very little else about it. This pattern only reveals itself after etching which then rules out "faux" damascus steel.

I'd be interested to know if any other forum members have seen similar daggers and especially similar forms of damascus steel. Thanks for any input!

spiral · 14th October 2014, 08:17 PM

Fascinating Charles!

Not suggesting it is, but think Ive seen some chrome vanadium steels etched with similar patterns?

Which would perhaps would imply a type of wootz rather than folded steel Damascus? {I realise not everyone uses the same terms..

}

Spiral

CharlesS · 14th October 2014, 09:58 PM

Hi Spiral,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, Sachse does imply that this is a type of wootz. I really did not make that very clear in the intro.

buendia · 14th October 2014, 11:33 PM

More macro photos in different lighting conditions would help.
My first thought was - etching, the second - wootz?? I saw somewhat similar weathered etching on Indian battle axe.

ilias · 14th October 2014, 11:33 PM

This type of dagger in my opoinion is a typical 17th c.Ottoman dagger.These kind of daggers come with the same profile blade but with different kind of steel(wootz,laminated,etc).The scabbard is an African made one just ti fit the dagger.Very nice one.

Take a look at the attaced pictures.The same type of handle but made from rosewood and i believe the same kind of blade.

CharlesS · 15th October 2014, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilias

This type of dagger in my opoinion is a typical 17th c.Ottoman dagger.These kind of daggers come with the same profile blade but with different kind of steel(wootz,laminated,etc).The scabbard is an African made one just ti fit the dagger.Very nice one.

Take a look at the attaced pictures.The same type of handle but made from rosewood and i believe the same kind of blade.

Good point Ilias. I am even beginning to wonder if, in fact, this dagger style is the one on which the much WWI area military issue dagger was based, most notably the blade...

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=292

Gavin Nugent · 15th October 2014, 05:41 AM

I have had a Tulwar with this distinct pattern.

It started as clear wootz but when reducing the surface to remove deep and unsightly pitting, this pattern remained in the worked areas.

It could be the result of burnishing and reshaping?

ilias · 15th October 2014, 07:47 AM

CharlesS I agree with you.I believe too that this kind of dagger style imitate the WWI military dagger.There are few of examples of these 17th c daggers that exist at museums and personal collections.I have seen some of them with exceptional wootz blades and some with just plain steel.This style was in fashion from the start of17th until the end of 18th century.

Martin Lubojacky · 15th October 2014, 08:01 AM

Here is dagger sold through Dorotheum.
I saw that pattern on old qudara, too
Martin

Gustav · 15th October 2014, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

I have had a Tulwar with this distinct pattern.

It started as clear wootz but when reducing the surface to remove deep and unsightly pitting, this pattern remained in the worked areas.

It could be the result of burnishing and reshaping?

I think, Gavin could be right on it. Wootz is only a visual side effect of crucible steel and appears clear mostly only on the original surface of a blade.

ALEX · 15th October 2014, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilias

This type of dagger in my opoinion is a typical 17th c.Ottoman dagger.These kind of daggers come with the same profile blade but with different kind of steel(wootz,laminated,etc).The scabbard is an African made one just ti fit the dagger.Very nice one.

Take a look at the attaced pictures.The same type of handle but made from rosewood and i believe the same kind of blade.

I second Ilias opinion. It is certainly early Ottoman dagger (both hilt and blade are perfect match). I have few similar with identical pattern. this type of wootz pattern is distinctive of early, around 17th c Ottoman production.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4054

Oliver Pinchot · 20th October 2014, 05:44 PM

Sorry to weigh in a little belatedly, Alex and Ilias nailed it. It's a classic form of Ottoman dagger from the first half of the 17th century. The faceted, waisted grip is characteristic, and is the lightly-curved, double-edged blade. This type of wootz is often found on Ottoman blades; it was called Istanbul Beyaz, or Istanbul White, as the constituents tend to etch very pale, usually ranging from silver to a light gray at the darkest. Patterns are usually random, like the examples shown.
The scabbards of these daggers are their most distinctive characteristic, this one has long since been replaced, apparently in northeast Africa. One rarely sees these on the market. Nice catch, Charles.

CharlesS · 20th October 2014, 06:20 PM

Thanks for the input guys.

It's pretty clear this piece has more aged than I expected. The downgraded and almost surely replaced scabbard certainly suggests a NE Africa attribution as Oliver has noted and I can only imagine how many hands it has been through in its long service life, apparently most recently in Africa. ...oh if they could only talk!!!

14th October 2014, 05:41 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Interesting Ottoman-Arab Dagger This past weekend Rsword, Runjeet, Battara, and myself had a chance to study this interesting dagger. The dagger has a clearly Ottoman inspired hilt of walrus ivory with a blade that has a more Arab or N. African profile. I believe this piece could potentially be from anywhere in the eastern Mediterranean or N. African portions of the 19th century Ottoman Empire. When Battara and I first examined the blade we were convinced it was "faux" damascus steel, but Rsword pointed out to us an example of a little known form or damascus steel mentioned in Manfred Sachse's book *Damascus Steel. It is illustrated on page 72(3rd edition) in figure 111. He calls it "chequered mottle (network) damask". Unfortunately, he says very little else about it. This pattern only reveals itself after etching which then rules out "faux" damascus steel. I'd be interested to know if any other forum members have seen similar daggers and especially similar forms of damascus steel. Thanks for any input!* Attached Images

14th October 2014, 11:33 PM	#5
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	This type of dagger in my opoinion is a typical 17th c.Ottoman dagger.These kind of daggers come with the same profile blade but with different kind of steel(wootz,laminated,etc).The scabbard is an African made one just ti fit the dagger.Very nice one. Take a look at the attaced pictures.The same type of handle but made from rosewood and i believe the same kind of blade. Attached Images

15th October 2014, 08:01 AM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Here is dagger sold through Dorotheum. I saw that pattern on old qudara, too Martin Attached Images

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14th October 2014, 08:17 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Fascinating Charles! Not suggesting it is, but think Ive seen some chrome vanadium steels etched with similar patterns? Which would perhaps would imply a type of wootz rather than folded steel Damascus? {I realise not everyone uses the same terms.. } Spiral

14th October 2014, 09:58 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Hi Spiral, Thanks for your comments. Yes, Sachse does imply that this is a type of wootz. I really did not make that very clear in the intro.

14th October 2014, 11:33 PM	#4
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	More macro photos in different lighting conditions would help. My first thought was - etching, the second - wootz?? I saw somewhat similar weathered etching on Indian battle axe.

15th October 2014, 05:41 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I have had a Tulwar with this distinct pattern. It started as clear wootz but when reducing the surface to remove deep and unsightly pitting, this pattern remained in the worked areas. It could be the result of burnishing and reshaping?

15th October 2014, 07:47 AM	#8
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	CharlesS I agree with you.I believe too that this kind of dagger style imitate the WWI military dagger.There are few of examples of these 17th c daggers that exist at museums and personal collections.I have seen some of them with exceptional wootz blades and some with just plain steel.This style was in fashion from the start of17th until the end of 18th century.

20th October 2014, 05:44 PM	#12
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	Sorry to weigh in a little belatedly, Alex and Ilias nailed it. It's a classic form of Ottoman dagger from the first half of the 17th century. The faceted, waisted grip is characteristic, and is the lightly-curved, double-edged blade. This type of wootz is often found on Ottoman blades; it was called Istanbul Beyaz, or Istanbul White, as the constituents tend to etch very pale, usually ranging from silver to a light gray at the darkest. Patterns are usually random, like the examples shown. The scabbards of these daggers are their most distinctive characteristic, this one has long since been replaced, apparently in northeast Africa. One rarely sees these on the market. Nice catch, Charles.

20th October 2014, 06:20 PM	#13
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Thanks for the input guys. It's pretty clear this piece has more aged than I expected. The downgraded and almost surely replaced scabbard certainly suggests a NE Africa attribution as Oliver has noted and I can only imagine how many hands it has been through in its long service life, apparently most recently in Africa. ...oh if they could only talk!!!