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Old 13th March 2018, 07:45 PM   #1
Drabant1701
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Default Translating text and date on a Ottoman dagger

I have bought Ottoman dagger (jambiya?). Its really big, about 48cm long, and has a nice watered steel blade. On one side of the blade there is an arabic text and on the other side a date. The last digit in the date is halfway gone but I do think its a nine. As far as I can tell it would be 1219 = 1804, correct?
I have no idea what the text might say, but there might be someone on the forum that could read it. If you can, and want to I would very much appriciate a translation to english (or swedish .

Regards Peter
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:20 AM   #2
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I love the wootz!

Not sure the scabbard and hilt are original to each other though.

Yes Ottoman jambiya.
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:39 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
I love the wootz!

Not sure the scabbard and hilt are original to each other though.

Yes Ottoman jambiya.


The wootz is awsome. I bought it with really dirty blade thinking that it might be wootz. I just cleaned it a little and etched it. I got a weird result with lighter patches near the gold koftgari. I polished and reetched with the same result.
Strangly they are uniform on both sides

Edit: Found at blade with similar difference in color, makes me think its been heat treated. https://www.instagram.com/p/BVkbZ8k...n-by=mkantiques

The scabbard and hilt do look like they dont match, maybe they dont. But this is pretty similar. http://armsandantiques.com/19th-c-s...ya-dagger-md428
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:29 PM   #4
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Very nice.


The date is 121(9?), corresponding in the worst possible case to 1804-1805.
Full silver scabbard is likely original.
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Old 15th March 2018, 11:32 AM   #5
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Great dagger. Absolutely beautiful wootz. The scabbard and general shape look Eastern Turkish, Kurdish influenced.
There is one thing I have to add though. As you said yourself, it might have been "treated" at some later date. The perfect state of the koftgiri + these light patches are a bit suspicious and may suggest the the koftgiri has been re-done at some point.
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Old 15th March 2018, 04:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motan
Great dagger. Absolutely beautiful wootz. The scabbard and general shape look Eastern Turkish, Kurdish influenced.
There is one thing I have to add though. As you said yourself, it might have been "treated" at some later date. The perfect state of the koftgiri + these light patches are a bit suspicious and may suggest the the koftgiri has been re-done at some point.


Thanks you Ariel and Motan for your comments.

I am not experienced enough to judge of the koftgari is re-done. My guess is that it is period to the dagger. I have a couple of ottoman pieces with koftgari, one of them a sword from the same period with koftgari that is in very good condition. From what I have seen this type of koftgari seem to be very resistant to wear, and may well look very good after 200 years.

After 3 years of collecting I am however starting to realize that not much is certain when collecting "oriental" arms and I am allways open to revalute and learn from those with more experience.
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Old 15th March 2018, 06:47 PM   #7
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Hi,

The dagger, the blade, the koftgari are all good and original.
There is no problem with this Ottoman Turkish khanjar.
Just beautiful

Kubur
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Old 16th March 2018, 08:12 PM   #8
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Hej Drabant1701,
Grattis! En mycket snygg dolk!

Hälsningar
Stefan
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Old 17th March 2018, 09:10 AM   #9
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I have the same issue of lighter patches of wootz in more blades (see Persian Kard with discoloured patches near the koftgari on both sides). I suspect it is because of different heat treatment. Nothing unusual.

Lovely dagger!
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:50 AM   #10
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What a beautiful dagger !
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
I have the same issue of lighter patches of wootz in more blades (see Persian Kard with discoloured patches near the koftgari on both sides). I suspect it is because of different heat treatment. Nothing unusual.

Lovely dagger!


Thanks! Your persian dagger is beautiful, Im putting one of those on the want list. As for light patches, yes most likley heat treatment. I have started to realize that once you have found the correct etchant for a specific blade, its best to just accept the result, any discolorizion on the blade, from heat treatment or other is part of the blades personality.
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Old 17th March 2018, 03:15 PM   #12
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Hi drabant1701,

Since I consider kubur much more knowledgeable than myself, you should trust his judgement on this better than mine.
Whenever I see a very old piece in great condition, and especially with things like koftgari that are prone to wear, it arouses some suspicion (and perhaps little jealousy too). It is just rare to find them like this, but not implausible. The history of storage and use are more important than age in determining the condition. The light patches around the koftgari may reflect something in the process of production, but more likely are the effect of repeated cleaning around the decoration to prevent wear.
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Old 17th March 2018, 05:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drabant1701
I have started to realize that once you have found the correct etchant for a specific blade, its best to just accept the result, any discolorizion on the blade, from heat treatment or other is part of the blades personality.


I reached precisely the same conclusion!

What etchant do you use?

@ motan

The lighter patches are not the result of cleaning. They are intrinsic to the wootz, most probably the result of heat treatment different for the tip/edge and for the area near the hilt. I polished a couple of blades to mirror polish and etched them anew and got the same patches like before.
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Old 17th March 2018, 06:47 PM   #14
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Smile Ottoman Dagger

Hi every one,
The dagger and the scabbard are original produced in the eastern part of Turkey and ıts date is correct. What looks a little suspicious is the koftgari work and the heat treatment.In order to lay the infra structure for koftgari most hardened blades are heat treated (to normalise ) when it becomes easier to cross cut .The tell tale signs are that on a good blade koftgari work is restrained and no overflow of cross hatching is allowed.But over all ıts a good
knife to have.Congradulations
Yataganman
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Old 18th March 2018, 12:07 PM   #15
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[QUOTE=mariusgmioc]I reached precisely the same conclusion!

What etchant do you use?

I dipped it 5-10 seconds i ferric chloride. Only one etching, etched super quick.
Then baking powder and lots of water, and lots of oil.

Last edited by Drabant1701 : 18th March 2018 at 03:48 PM.
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