Info on new Tulwar and Indo Axe

CollectingNewbie · 30th October 2006, 04:36 AM

Hey everybody, I just recently purchased an Indian Tulwar with some markings on the back of the blade, does anyone know what they mean? Also I just bought a Indo persian axe, Ill be posting better pics as soon as I receive it. Thanks for any help.

wolviex · 30th October 2006, 07:34 AM

Can't help you much about signs but this axe catched my eye. On one of the Polish auctions there was very or even almost identical axe on sale.
Can anyone enlighten us about those axes. I hope these are original (this one from Poland I know only from picture, so I can't give any further details, sorry)
Regards

HUSAR · 30th October 2006, 09:39 AM

I think that both axes or so called “ankus” are late XIX century work, more or less for tourist, as far I know this type of axes were used to handle the elephants… In Nepal and India they use similar “equipment” till today however I have seen kukri knifes in usage as well

Regards

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2006, 10:27 AM

You have a solid fighting tulwar, and the diamond shaped hilt together with the decoration on top of the disc could point in the direction of Rajasthan. BTW the text is upside down. I don’t know what it says, it could be a makers, or more likely an armoury mark.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2006, 03:19 PM

Hello Newbie!
You're doing pretty good for a 'new guy'

Just as Jens has noted spot on, your tulwar is a very nice example of fighting tulwar on latter 19th to very early 20th century, and Rajasthan quite likely for manufacture. It seems the diamond grip shape on the hilt and the simplistic squared langet have been sometimes associated with Sikh examples, but definitive qualifications on that are elusive. I have spoken with a number of Sikhs in trying to determine any particularities that would exist on a weapon to define it as Sikh, but usually the 'wry' reply was always, "if it was used by a Sikh...then it is Sikh".

On that note, I would welcome any observations from our members or readers that might enlighten that topic.

Getting back to your tulwar, in my opinion the markings are most likely associated with either armoury or possibly even unit markings. The reason I suggest this is that they are placed in the same key location at the back on the blade near the hilt that was consistantly used by British makers on swords throughout the 19th century. I once owned a pair of solid metal tulwars made for native cavalry troopers in British Raj units, that were manufactured by 'Mole', the well established Birmingham maker later incorporated into the famed Wilkinson. These were stamped 'Mole' in the exact same location at the back of the blade.
It is well known that British native cavalry regiment contingents favored the tulwar, especially of course the Sikh and Rajput warriors that comprised considerably the ranks. I would suspect this tulwar to have been produced under auspices of British stores contractors and issued militarily within native regiments during the British Raj period, likely in the time period suggested.

The axe is also extremely interesting, and is actually not a combat weapon, but a ceremonial weapon that was interestingly often used in northern India as a standard in battle (much in the same way as the Islamic 'alem' , or huge leafed spear head was used). See "Battle Axes" (James D. Gamble, p.83) for identical example. Gamble notes that these typically were overlaid and chiseled with figures similar to those found on Indian ceremonial temple axes known as 'catri'. It seems likely that information on these might be found in data on Rajputs or Rajasthan (such as James Tod).

Looks like you've pretty much scored some original items from the colorful period of the British Raj in India!!

Very nice!

All the best,
Jim

CollectingNewbie · 30th October 2006, 05:24 PM

Well from what Ive heard so far, I did a very good job on the tulwar. Only paid 100.00 for it

Im not so sure on the axe though I think I might have over paid on that one, but I liked it so much I didnt want to let it get away, I just need to study up.

HUSAR · 30th October 2006, 06:43 PM

The axe is also extremely interesting, and is actually not a combat weapon, but a ceremonial weapon that was interestingly often used in northern India as a standard in battle (much in the same way as the Islamic 'alem' , or huge leafed spear head was used). See "Battle Axes" (James D. Gamble, p.83) for identical example. Gamble notes that these typically were overlaid and chiseled with figures similar to those found on Indian ceremonial temple axes known as 'catri'. It seems likely that information on these might be found in data on Rajputs or Rajasthan (such as James Tod).

Thank You for information! Iwas quite sure that this is very late ceremonial type of ankus

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2006, 07:25 PM

Newbie,
Thats outstanding ! No you didnt overpay....these items are extremely collectible and not commonly found to the best of my knowledge.
\
Husar,
Youre quite welcome! You were on the 'right page' with it being ceremonial, but the ankus is actually a hook type item, essentially intended for use of the mahout, or elephant driver. While ceremonial examples certainly exist, it was originally and remains in degree, a utilitarian item.

Best regards,
Jim

CollectingNewbie · 30th October 2006, 07:28 PM

Thanks for the reassurance Jim, Im absolutly positive Im going to love it, in the item description the seller had the word "goad" does this mean anything to anyone, a certain type of axe?

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2006, 08:26 PM

The term 'goad' refers to 'prompting', that is to be used as the ankus is used, to manuever or control the elephant. The term in this case was obviously misapplied by that individual, although certain associations between the two could be assumed, in the ceremonial sense that is.
Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 30th October 2006, 08:35 PM

I have read that the "ankus" goad had a large spike and hammer like construction to drive into the elephants head if it were run wild and confused among people. This would suit some politicians. Some animal goads are stuck somewhere else.

30th October 2006, 04:36 AM	#1
CollectingNewbie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 160	Info on new Tulwar and Indo Axe Hey everybody, I just recently purchased an Indian Tulwar with some markings on the back of the blade, does anyone know what they mean? Also I just bought a Indo persian axe, Ill be posting better pics as soon as I receive it. Thanks for any help. Attached Images

30th October 2006, 07:34 AM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Can't help you much about signs but this axe catched my eye. On one of the Polish auctions there was very or even almost identical axe on sale. Can anyone enlighten us about those axes. I hope these are original (this one from Poland I know only from picture, so I can't give any further details, sorry) Regards Attached Images

30th October 2006, 09:39 AM	#3
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	I think that both axes or so called “ankus” are late XIX century work, more or less for tourist, as far I know this type of axes were used to handle the elephants… In Nepal and India they use similar “equipment” till today however I have seen kukri knifes in usage as well Regards

30th October 2006, 10:27 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	You have a solid fighting tulwar, and the diamond shaped hilt together with the decoration on top of the disc could point in the direction of Rajasthan. BTW the text is upside down. I don’t know what it says, it could be a makers, or more likely an armoury mark.

30th October 2006, 03:19 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,742	Hello Newbie! You're doing pretty good for a 'new guy' Just as Jens has noted spot on, your tulwar is a very nice example of fighting tulwar on latter 19th to very early 20th century, and Rajasthan quite likely for manufacture. It seems the diamond grip shape on the hilt and the simplistic squared langet have been sometimes associated with Sikh examples, but definitive qualifications on that are elusive. I have spoken with a number of Sikhs in trying to determine any particularities that would exist on a weapon to define it as Sikh, but usually the 'wry' reply was always, "if it was used by a Sikh...then it is Sikh". On that note, I would welcome any observations from our members or readers that might enlighten that topic. Getting back to your tulwar, in my opinion the markings are most likely associated with either armoury or possibly even unit markings. The reason I suggest this is that they are placed in the same key location at the back on the blade near the hilt that was consistantly used by British makers on swords throughout the 19th century. I once owned a pair of solid metal tulwars made for native cavalry troopers in British Raj units, that were manufactured by 'Mole', the well established Birmingham maker later incorporated into the famed Wilkinson. These were stamped 'Mole' in the exact same location at the back of the blade. It is well known that British native cavalry regiment contingents favored the tulwar, especially of course the Sikh and Rajput warriors that comprised considerably the ranks. I would suspect this tulwar to have been produced under auspices of British stores contractors and issued militarily within native regiments during the British Raj period, likely in the time period suggested. The axe is also extremely interesting, and is actually not a combat weapon, but a ceremonial weapon that was interestingly often used in northern India as a standard in battle (much in the same way as the Islamic 'alem' , or huge leafed spear head was used). See "Battle Axes" (James D. Gamble, p.83) for identical example. Gamble notes that these typically were overlaid and chiseled with figures similar to those found on Indian ceremonial temple axes known as 'catri'. It seems likely that information on these might be found in data on Rajputs or Rajasthan (such as James Tod). Looks like you've pretty much scored some original items from the colorful period of the British Raj in India!! Very nice! All the best, Jim

30th October 2006, 05:24 PM	#6
CollectingNewbie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 160	Well from what Ive heard so far, I did a very good job on the tulwar. Only paid 100.00 for it Im not so sure on the axe though I think I might have over paid on that one, but I liked it so much I didnt want to let it get away, I just need to study up.

30th October 2006, 06:43 PM	#7
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	The axe is also extremely interesting, and is actually not a combat weapon, but a ceremonial weapon that was interestingly often used in northern India as a standard in battle (much in the same way as the Islamic 'alem' , or huge leafed spear head was used). See "Battle Axes" (James D. Gamble, p.83) for identical example. Gamble notes that these typically were overlaid and chiseled with figures similar to those found on Indian ceremonial temple axes known as 'catri'. It seems likely that information on these might be found in data on Rajputs or Rajasthan (such as James Tod). Thank You for information! Iwas quite sure that this is very late ceremonial type of ankus

30th October 2006, 07:25 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,742	Newbie, Thats outstanding ! No you didnt overpay....these items are extremely collectible and not commonly found to the best of my knowledge. \ Husar, Youre quite welcome! You were on the 'right page' with it being ceremonial, but the ankus is actually a hook type item, essentially intended for use of the mahout, or elephant driver. While ceremonial examples certainly exist, it was originally and remains in degree, a utilitarian item. Best regards, Jim

30th October 2006, 07:28 PM	#9
CollectingNewbie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 160	Thanks for the reassurance Jim, Im absolutly positive Im going to love it, in the item description the seller had the word "goad" does this mean anything to anyone, a certain type of axe?

30th October 2006, 08:26 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,742	The term 'goad' refers to 'prompting', that is to be used as the ankus is used, to manuever or control the elephant. The term in this case was obviously misapplied by that individual, although certain associations between the two could be assumed, in the ceremonial sense that is. Best regards, Jim

30th October 2006, 08:35 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I have read that the "ankus" goad had a large spike and hammer like construction to drive into the elephants head if it were run wild and confused among people. This would suit some politicians. Some animal goads are stuck somewhere else.