Interesting example of Indian metalwork, with OT quiz!

Atlantia · 13th February 2010, 06:54 PM

well, I thought I'd share this with you all as its an interesting example of Indian decoration using traditional styles and 'snapshots' of landmarks, presumably to tempt British pockets to open?
Its a huge bronze planter (8inches high, by 11inches across), with four panels showing buildings. Each picture has a short (initials) inscription in english.
It would have looked completely at home in a victorian conservatory with a bushy aspedistra sprouting out of it. It has been well polished on the outside but has ancient patina inside, I'd say it's at least 1900.
Anyhow, the traditional parts of the decoration are very similar to those used on weapon fittings, even armour and shields. The Buildings are mostly a mystery to me. One is rather obvious....... Can anyone identify any others?

First Picture has stamped inscription 'T.M.A'.

Second picture: 'M.O.T.O.D'

Third: 'J.M.D'.

Fourth: 'S.O.f.T.M.A' (The 'O' has an accent above, and the 'f' is lower case)

olikara · 14th February 2010, 02:43 PM

Gene,

The piece is certainly interesting. The abbreviated inscriptions are quite intriguing too. Why would someone put them there? Almost certainly, the item was made to order.

T.M.A. is of course Taj Mahal Agra.

M.O.T.O.D. I have no clue yet but the last character 'D' suggests it is a Delhi monument. The outer facade of the building looks Western to me and the obelisk in front leads me to believe it may be a Mutiny memorial or related monument.

J.M.D. is the Jantar Mantar astronomical observatory at Delhi made in the early 18th century.

S.O.f.T.M.A may expand as 'Screen ? ? Taj Mahal Agra'. The decoration is without doubt the screen around Mumtaz Mahal's tomb in the Taj Mahal at Agra.

Nidhi

Jens Nordlunde · 14th February 2010, 04:53 PM

Gene, it is most interesting planter, and it is true that part of the decorations can be seen on Indian weapons. The decorations at the top and the bottom of the planter are often used in Deccan, but you can also see them used in other parts of India.
Nidhi, thank you for 'translating' the abbreviations and for showing the old photos. It gives the decorations a deeper perspective when you have something to compare the decorations to.
Jens

Atlantia · 15th February 2010, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olikara

Gene,

The piece is certainly interesting. The abbreviated inscriptions are quite intriguing too. Why would someone put them there? Almost certainly, the item was made to order.

T.M.A. is of course Taj Mahal Agra.

M.O.T.O.D. I have no clue yet but the last character 'D' suggests it is a Delhi monument. The outer facade of the building looks Western to me and the obelisk in front leads me to believe it may be a Mutiny memorial or related monument.

J.M.D. is the Jantar Mantar astronomical observatory at Delhi made in the early 18th century.

S.O.f.T.M.A may expand as 'Screen ? ? Taj Mahal Agra'. The decoration is without doubt the screen around Mumtaz Mahal's tomb in the Taj Mahal at Agra.

Nidhi

Hi Nidhi

Fantastic work you've done there!
I think that 'S.O.f.T.M.A' is 'Shrine Of Taj Mahal Agra'.
I was wondering if it was part of the 'TMA' or some other mauseleum, brilliant job finding it for me!
Now, as for the JMD, I was completely looking in the wrong direction for that one and wouldn't have found it in a million years of googling!

Thank you so much for that

I'm drawing a total blank on the 'MOTOD' I think you are on to something with the western influence..........
You think the piece was a special order?
Thats interesting, I wonder why?
Thanks for all your help, truly appreciated.
Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 15th February 2010, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Gene, it is most interesting planter, and it is true that part of the decorations can be seen on Indian weapons. The decorations at the top and the bottom of the planter are often used in Deccan, but you can also see them used in other parts of India.
Nidhi, thank you for 'translating' the abbreviations and for showing the old photos. It gives the decorations a deeper perspective when you have something to compare the decorations to.
Jens

Hi Jens,

I know I'm a bit of an offender with the OT-bowl threads, but this seemed interesting enough to venture.
This is a new type for me. The quality is rather nice (not sure it comes across too well in the pictures) It has real age, and the mixture of obviously 'tourist/alien' appeal and traditional design is such a striking contrast, that it seems to have appeal not only to the general metalwork collectors such as myself, but also have aspects that would interest those who study the decoration of Indian weapons.
Would you be able to venture a guess as to if it did originate in the Deccan plateau/region?

Regards
Gene

olikara · 18th February 2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

You think the piece was a special order?
Thats interesting, I wonder why?

Gene,

When we found it difficult to decipher the abbreviations ourselves, I doubt if the average Englishman of that time would have better luck!!

This must have been a commisioned piece maybe, for someone who came back to 'Old Blighty' after a long sojourn in India around the Delhi-Agra corridoor.

Nidhi

Atlantia · 18th February 2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olikara

Gene,

When we found it difficult to decipher the abbreviations ourselves, I doubt if the average Englishman of that time would have better luck!!

This must have been a commisioned piece maybe, for someone who came back to 'Old Blighty' after a long sojourn in India around the Delhi-Agra corridoor.

Nidhi

Hi Nidhi,

Thats a very good point about the abbreviations.
And the commision ideas. I could do with a 'long sojourn' in India myself!

The pictures of the observatory and Taj are so close to photgraphs that I wonder if the artist worked from souvenier postcards to produce them?
I mean, its not such a suprise with the Taj itself, or the shrine, but the observatory is an uncanny resemblance to the photograph you found, even the angle is the same.
The last picture is a puzzle...
I've been thinking about the initials 'M.O.T.O.D'
If the first word is monument, and the last Delhi, one of the O's could be Obelisk?
Here's a better pic with some barrel distortion removed to flatten it a bit.

It looks like a barracks or fort in some ways.

Regards
Gene

Norman McCormick · 18th February 2010, 09:01 PM

Hi,
No idea about M.O.T.O.D. but the monument to General Nicholson at the Margalla Pass is an obelisk with ancient Greek style buildings at the foot.???
Regards,
Norman.

katana · 18th February 2010, 09:51 PM

Hi Gene,
I believe it is the telegraph monument in Delhi .... Monument O... Telegraph O.... Delhi ??

Regards David

PS Now confirmed.....found a better image

.

katana · 18th February 2010, 10:06 PM

Hi Gene,
I believe the postcard is dated 1902, it shows a monument dedicated to the 1857 mutiny, the building behind is the Telegraph Office. Now heres the interesting bit .....notice the height of the trees and foliage ....almost identical to the postcard ....so if dated correctly (the postcard) the image on your piece was conceived at roughly the same time

. Unless, of course, the image used to create the design was old and the bowl created later......... a possibility when looking at the postcard image, it is almost identical .....as with the images of the Observatory and the Marble screen .....a bizarre coincidence ??????????

Best Regards David

Atlantia · 18th February 2010, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
No idea about M.O.T.O.D. but the monument to General Nicholson at the Margalla Pass is an obelisk with ancient Greek style buildings at the foot.???
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman, Thanks for helping mate. I was just going to try and look into that one when I had to nip out (Awful headcold, need paracetamol), and I come back and David, Who shall now be known as 'Columbo' has solved it for us!

Atlantia · 18th February 2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene,
I believe the postcard is dated 1902, it shows a monument dedicated to the 1857 mutiny, the building behind is the Telegraph Office. Now heres the interesting bit .....notice the height of the trees and foliage ....almost identical to the postcard ....so if dated correctly (the postcard) the image on your piece was conceived at roughly the same time

. Unless, of course, the image used to create the design was old and the bowl created later......... a possibility when looking at the postcard image, it is almost identical .....as with the images of the Observatory and the Marble screen .....a bizarre coincidence ??????????

Best Regards David

Monument Outside Telegraph Office Delhi? LOL
You are amazing mate!
It all fits with what we've been saying. And I totally agree that the artist used comtempory postcards as a pattern for these images.
I think its possible that whoever commisioned this work may have said 'here's what I want on it' and handed them over.
How did you find it? You bloody star you

Atlantia · 18th February 2010, 10:48 PM

LOL, 'Memorial Old Telegraph Office Delhi'

Errected in 1902, so my planter must be then or later.

katana · 19th February 2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Norman, Thanks for helping mate. I was just going to try and look into that one when I had to nip out (Awful headcold, need paracetamol), and I come back and David, Who shall now be known as 'Columbo' has solved it for us!

Hi Gene,
thanks

but this was a 'team' effort .....Olikara's and Norman's input jogged my memory

Glad we were all able to help.

Look after yourself ....we all know (even if the women don't

) that 'man flu' can be very serious

Best
David

Atlantia · 19th February 2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene,
thanks

but this was a 'team' effort .....Olikara's and Norman's input jogged my memory

Glad we were all able to help.

Look after yourself ....we all know (even if the women don't

) that 'man flu' can be very serious

Best
David

Absolutely mate, it's another great example of teamwork on these forums.
I'm really pleased to have them all identified, and I'm wondering if they have anything in common beyond that they clearly all featured on postcards from around 1902?

P.S. Was a good catch though bud

And thanks, I don't think it merits 'man-flu' yet... but its certainly a 'man-cold'

13th February 2010, 06:54 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Interesting example of Indian metalwork, with OT quiz! well, I thought I'd share this with you all as its an interesting example of Indian decoration using traditional styles and 'snapshots' of landmarks, presumably to tempt British pockets to open? Its a huge bronze planter (8inches high, by 11inches across), with four panels showing buildings. Each picture has a short (initials) inscription in english. It would have looked completely at home in a victorian conservatory with a bushy aspedistra sprouting out of it. It has been well polished on the outside but has ancient patina inside, I'd say it's at least 1900. Anyhow, the traditional parts of the decoration are very similar to those used on weapon fittings, even armour and shields. The Buildings are mostly a mystery to me. One is rather obvious....... Can anyone identify any others? First Picture has stamped inscription 'T.M.A'. Second picture: 'M.O.T.O.D' Third: 'J.M.D'. Fourth: 'S.O.f.T.M.A' (The 'O' has an accent above, and the 'f' is lower case)

14th February 2010, 02:43 PM	#2
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Delhi and Agra Pics Gene, The piece is certainly interesting. The abbreviated inscriptions are quite intriguing too. Why would someone put them there? Almost certainly, the item was made to order. T.M.A. is of course Taj Mahal Agra. M.O.T.O.D. I have no clue yet but the last character 'D' suggests it is a Delhi monument. The outer facade of the building looks Western to me and the obelisk in front leads me to believe it may be a Mutiny memorial or related monument. J.M.D. is the Jantar Mantar astronomical observatory at Delhi made in the early 18th century. S.O.f.T.M.A may expand as 'Screen ? ? Taj Mahal Agra'. The decoration is without doubt the screen around Mumtaz Mahal's tomb in the Taj Mahal at Agra. Nidhi Attached Images

18th February 2010, 09:51 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Gene, I believe it is the telegraph monument in Delhi .... Monument O... Telegraph O.... Delhi ?? Regards David PS Now confirmed.....found a better image . Attached Images

14th February 2010, 04:53 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Gene, it is most interesting planter, and it is true that part of the decorations can be seen on Indian weapons. The decorations at the top and the bottom of the planter are often used in Deccan, but you can also see them used in other parts of India. Nidhi, thank you for 'translating' the abbreviations and for showing the old photos. It gives the decorations a deeper perspective when you have something to compare the decorations to. Jens

18th February 2010, 09:01 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, No idea about M.O.T.O.D. but the monument to General Nicholson at the Margalla Pass is an obelisk with ancient Greek style buildings at the foot.??? Regards, Norman.

18th February 2010, 10:06 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Gene, I believe the postcard is dated 1902, it shows a monument dedicated to the 1857 mutiny, the building behind is the Telegraph Office. Now heres the interesting bit .....notice the height of the trees and foliage ....almost identical to the postcard ....so if dated correctly (the postcard) the image on your piece was conceived at roughly the same time . Unless, of course, the image used to create the design was old and the bowl created later......... a possibility when looking at the postcard image, it is almost identical .....as with the images of the Observatory and the Marble screen .....a bizarre coincidence ?????????? Best Regards David

18th February 2010, 10:48 PM	#13
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	LOL, 'Memorial Old Telegraph Office Delhi' Errected in 1902, so my planter must be then or later.