Picture of a 17th Lancer in 1829 wearing a 1796 LCS

[sirupate]

Also it appears that the famed military artist RC Woodville has them using the 1796 LCS in the famous 'Charge of the Light Brigade'.
Having been based in India and then armed with the 1796 LCS is it possible they retained that sabre even in the Crimea, taking into account the picture from 1829 and Woodvilles picture of them?

[sirupate]

Picture by RC Woodville

[fernando]

Very nice illustrations and info.
Thanks for sharing

[sirupate]

My pleasure Fernando.

Anyone have any thought on the possibility of the 17th still retaining the 1796 LCS during the Crimea War?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by sirupate

My pleasure Fernando.

Anyone have any thought on the possibility of the 17th still retaining the 1796 LCS during the Crimea War?

An absolutely fascinating topic in British military history, and most intriguing question. Actually as a very young collector my fascination with the Charge of the Light Brigade became an obsession (probably from the much dramatized Errol Flynn Hollywood version) and compelled me to collect British cavalry swords. Like many such widely popularized historic events which became heavily filtered through literature and later movies, ongoing research has always questioned many often distorted and sometimes fanciful notions.

The 17th Lancers, probably the most well known of the famed 'Light Brigade' due to their distinct uniforms and lances in the front line of the charge, had indeed been in India from 1817 until 1823. While in India they had been reassigned as 'lancers' , I believe one of the first British units so designated, influenced by Napoleons Polish lancers (hence the distinct 'chapka' headgear).

The M1796 light cavalry sabre was being supplanted by the new model 1821 cavalry sabre with three bar guard rather than the stirrup hilt of the M1796, and by 1823 there had been some issuance of the new swords. However with certain production issues if I recall correctly, the renewed production in scale did not begin until 1829, and there has often been classification disparity in whether these were M1821 or M1829.

In any case, while the 17th were in India, they of course would have been armed with the M1796, and that sabre indeed remained in service in India long after the introduction of the M1821/29 and was much favored by native regiments. In fact, these sabres remained so popular in India they were still being produced privately for the native regiments as late as end of the 19th century.

The fabulous prints by R. Caton Woodville are of course often key icons for students of militaria, however like other artistic renderings of military units and historic events, a degree of artistic license existed. While it is known that during the issue of the new M1821/29 sabres a long transition period ensued, we know that the 17th were back in England by 1823, and were being outfitted with unique new uniforms to accompany their new designation as lancers.
It seems highly doubtful that a unit with this much attention to fashion in addition to key designation would not receive the new sabre forms straightaway, but perhaps a lag until 1829 could have plausibly occurred.

It is now known that at the Charge of the Light Brigade, the primary sword of issue to the units was the M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. However new evidence has revealed that a considerable number of the troopers of all units carried the newly issued M1853 pattern, a much heavier sabre. There has been no evidence of the older M1796 patterns in the Charge .

I would submit however that in later years, reunions and events honoring survivors were celebrated in England through the latter part of the century. Apparently a number of presentation sabres of the M1796 pattern were inscribed and presented to some of these survivors. It seems there have only been a couple I know of which have come up in auctions. I know they caused quite a stir when they appeared and revived that very question.

I would conclude that the M1796 was not present at the Charge .

[terry1956]

As most of us know.the forming of lancer regiments in the british army was a direct result of meetings with french and polish lancers during the napoleonic wars.not only did we copy the uniforms but also the lance itself.that famous RHA officer Mercer when walking around the battlefield of waterloo after the battle, came across a wounded lancer of the red lancers of the old guard.mercer took the lancers lance as a souvenir of the battle and took it back to the UK.it was this lance that was used for the pattern for lancers for the british cavalry. As a note, there was a 1821 pattern sabre with an engraved blade stating that it was ueed during the LB action.michael

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In fact, these sabres remained so popular in India they were still being produced privately for the native regiments as late as end of the 19th century...

As in other places, like for Portuguese Cavalry until 1851 .

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...
In any case, while the 17th were in India, they of course would have been armed with the M1796, and that sabre indeed remained in service in India long after the introduction of the M1821/29 and was much favored by native regiments. In fact, these sabres remained so popular in India they were still being produced privately for the native regiments as late as end of the 19th century...

...and beyond. I gather the Indian Army was offered the 1908 style straight thrusting 'sabre' and turned it down, only accepting essentially a 1796 with a beefed up ricasso area and a three bar guard (Mine fits a 1796lc scabbard up to about 3 in. from actual seating and it's hard to tell the difference). They were sadly forced to take the fairly useless 1908s just before ww1. I wonder if any of the '96s made it to Europe like ancestral Gurkha khukuris. The 'Mountain sabre' was popular in the Mountains of northern India including the Khyber pass and Afghanistan where they actually saw service. Mine feels a lot better balanced and handy than a 1796LC.

The Italian Mountain divisions in WW1 also had a very 1796-ish sword. They, and the Austrians opposing did amazing things in impossible places in the Alps.

The 1796 lives on.