13th century sword mystery

harrywagner · 5th August 2015, 05:06 PM

The Smithsonian magazine has an interesting article about a sword in the British museum. They are looking for help in deciphering the inscriptions the blade. The full-text article can be found here:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...NjIwNDYzNDI3S0

A crappy URL, but hopefully it will work.

Harry

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th August 2015, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

The Smithsonian magazine has an interesting article about a sword in the British museum. They are looking for help in deciphering the inscriptions the blade. The full-text article can be found here:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...NjIwNDYzNDI3S0

A crappy URL, but hopefully it will work.

Harry

Salaams Harry Wagner ...I hope you do not mind if I use the information here on my thread at Odd Sword...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Lee · 7th August 2015, 01:50 PM

This sword is included in Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword as X.15 (page 34) where there is also an image of the reverse showing a similarly prepared series of symbols. Mr. Oakeshott proposes an earlier date in that work, though I must admit some personal skepticism about that. Besides the possibility of being coherent in an unknown language, the inscription may possibly also be either an acronym (likely of a religious phrase or prayer) or entirely decorative in nature.

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2015, 04:34 PM

Lee, it is wonderful to have you posting on this, and of course most appropriate to have you here on this topic!!!

At first I thought this Smithsonian reference was to the Witham swords, which though newsworthy over a period of time, occasionally have been brought to the fore rather sensationalizing the 'mysterious' inscriptions. However, this seems clearly a separate case.

It seems Oakeshott included mention and drawings of some of these 'inscriptions' in his "Archaeology of Weapons", and that he was somewhat of the opinion they were acronyms probably of sacerdotal or other religious significance.

What is interesting is that these apparent acronyms or otherwise sequenced letters and interpolated either glyphs, symbols and perhaps flourished letter characters indeed defy any sort of reliable interpretation.

In the discussion of such inscription on a presently concurrent thread, under "Odd Sword", attempts are made to decipher the letters into some tangible order of translation. Again, it is difficult to determine exactly which alphabet, or combination thereof, might be employed.

I think what we need is a "Rosetta Sword" !!!

In the case of many Italian blades from Brescian regions, with makers Caino and Picinino in particular, there were alphabetic letters used in groupings, but often in repetitive fashion, and reductive in letters removed progressively in some cases. Also, often second lines were using the same letters though shuffled into anagram style groupings.

Obviously this practice defied any tangible acronym decoding, and suggests the letters may have been given numeric or other values or used in symbolic sequencing. The truth remains unknown. What is known is that the practice seems to have been employed in other centers, and in particular may have been filtered either to or from Spain.
While it is tempting to note that Germany certainly must have copied this practice in kind, as of course they spuriously used many Spanish and Italian markings and motif...it is important to recall that this mysterious practice seems present in degree in Frankish weapons earlier and somewhat on these English swords.

A remaining and possibly significant factor is that of the Kabbalah, and the use of gemetria, that is the use of alphabet characters with numeric value and various symbolism representing Kabbalistic dogma and esoterica.
It seems as I understand that the use of acronyms in Hebrew were often pronounced in some degree as words.

Though not suggesting that this particular blade, nor the inscriptions on the others mentioned might be associated to Kabbalist words or phrases, it is worthy to note as possible source of influence.

Again, thank you for adding this Lee,

Best regards,
Jim

Lee · 8th August 2015, 02:36 PM

Courtesy of a new member, here is a much less polluted link to the same inquiry that includes progress to date!

Ian · 8th August 2015, 02:51 PM

Thanks Lee. An interesting observation that these swords were distributed widely in Europe and possibly had a single manufacturing source/workshop. That may explain why the particular script has proved so elusive to identify--where was this purported workshop?

Mysterious mystical swords indeed.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2015, 04:44 PM

thanks

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th August 2015, 06:10 PM

I think it also peculiar that the M is probably upside down.

I think a grouping of all the excavated swords in this broad category would enhance our knowledge immensely. Unfortunately I have a hotel and 17 businesses to run not to mention a new railway to construct. Perhaps someone from our panel of experts could attempt this task...? I suggest the right location could be on the European...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2015, 05:35 PM

This thread has been moved to the European section in hopes of more exposure to its clear European origin and furthering investigation and discussion of the inscriptions on the blade, and others in kind.

5th August 2015, 05:06 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	13th century sword mystery The Smithsonian magazine has an interesting article about a sword in the British museum. They are looking for help in deciphering the inscriptions the blade. The full-text article can be found here: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...NjIwNDYzNDI3S0 A crappy URL, but hopefully it will work. Harry

7th August 2015, 01:50 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 889	This sword is included in Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword as X.15 (page 34) where there is also an image of the reverse showing a similarly prepared series of symbols. Mr. Oakeshott proposes an earlier date in that work, though I must admit some personal skepticism about that. Besides the possibility of being coherent in an unknown language, the inscription may possibly also be either an acronym (likely of a religious phrase or prayer) or entirely decorative in nature. Attached Images

8th August 2015, 02:36 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 889	less polluted link Courtesy of a new member, here is a much less polluted link to the same inquiry that includes progress to date!

7th August 2015, 04:34 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Lee, it is wonderful to have you posting on this, and of course most appropriate to have you here on this topic!!! At first I thought this Smithsonian reference was to the Witham swords, which though newsworthy over a period of time, occasionally have been brought to the fore rather sensationalizing the 'mysterious' inscriptions. However, this seems clearly a separate case. It seems Oakeshott included mention and drawings of some of these 'inscriptions' in his "Archaeology of Weapons", and that he was somewhat of the opinion they were acronyms probably of sacerdotal or other religious significance. What is interesting is that these apparent acronyms or otherwise sequenced letters and interpolated either glyphs, symbols and perhaps flourished letter characters indeed defy any sort of reliable interpretation. In the discussion of such inscription on a presently concurrent thread, under "Odd Sword", attempts are made to decipher the letters into some tangible order of translation. Again, it is difficult to determine exactly which alphabet, or combination thereof, might be employed. I think what we need is a "Rosetta Sword" !!! In the case of many Italian blades from Brescian regions, with makers Caino and Picinino in particular, there were alphabetic letters used in groupings, but often in repetitive fashion, and reductive in letters removed progressively in some cases. Also, often second lines were using the same letters though shuffled into anagram style groupings. Obviously this practice defied any tangible acronym decoding, and suggests the letters may have been given numeric or other values or used in symbolic sequencing. The truth remains unknown. What is known is that the practice seems to have been employed in other centers, and in particular may have been filtered either to or from Spain. While it is tempting to note that Germany certainly must have copied this practice in kind, as of course they spuriously used many Spanish and Italian markings and motif...it is important to recall that this mysterious practice seems present in degree in Frankish weapons earlier and somewhat on these English swords. A remaining and possibly significant factor is that of the Kabbalah, and the use of gemetria, that is the use of alphabet characters with numeric value and various symbolism representing Kabbalistic dogma and esoterica. It seems as I understand that the use of acronyms in Hebrew were often pronounced in some degree as words. Though not suggesting that this particular blade, nor the inscriptions on the others mentioned might be associated to Kabbalist words or phrases, it is worthy to note as possible source of influence. Again, thank you for adding this Lee, Best regards, Jim

8th August 2015, 02:51 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	Thanks Lee. An interesting observation that these swords were distributed widely in Europe and possibly had a single manufacturing source/workshop. That may explain why the particular script has proved so elusive to identify--where was this purported workshop? Mysterious mystical swords indeed. Ian.

8th August 2015, 04:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	thanks

8th August 2015, 06:10 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I think it also peculiar that the M is probably upside down. I think a grouping of all the excavated swords in this broad category would enhance our knowledge immensely. Unfortunately I have a hotel and 17 businesses to run not to mention a new railway to construct. Perhaps someone from our panel of experts could attempt this task...? I suggest the right location could be on the European... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

9th August 2015, 05:35 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	This thread has been moved to the European section in hopes of more exposure to its clear European origin and furthering investigation and discussion of the inscriptions on the blade, and others in kind.