Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

Michel · 30th September 2007, 04:11 PM

Hi Alan,
You have sent a few very very interesting messages lately concerning forging.
They have taught us a lot. Lemmythesmith may not have learned as much as my son and myself but I can tell you we did read and reread your messages, as you tell an awful lot in each.
Now forging with gas is something that we have never really considered but reading you it is worth a close look at it. Among the advantages that I could hope for, isn't the fact that one can see much better the heated piece ?
With charcoal it is always a problem as many pieces of charcoal are closing a precise view of the piece to be welded.
If you have clean material, with practically no sparks at welding temperature, it is almost a "must" to have a good view of the piece to weld to judge the temperature by its color. Any other signs for judging the welding temp ?
How do you do it with gas forging ?
Thanks for all these informations
Regards
Michel

lemmythesmith · 30th September 2007, 04:52 PM

Hi Michel, first, the final weight of the patrem blade is about 87 grammes.. Second, judging welding heat without the sparks can be done by looking at the surface of the iron whilst it's in the fire-the surface will look like butter on a hot day, slightly molten. (the surface looks wet) Never used a gas forge so I can't comment-I've always used coke or charcoal.

As for using a striker, I wish I still had this.......

I have a PDF which has full drawings for building a similar tool, I'm currently constructing one half size, the page seems to be down at the moment so if you want the plans let me know and I'll email them to you.

Regards, Graham.

Michel · 30th September 2007, 05:23 PM

Hi Graham,
Thank you for these information. You obviously have quite a bit of knowhow about forging and you learn less than I do here in reading Alan's messages.
I knew that a substantial part of the metal was lost in forging and in stock removal but 86 % of the original metal weight looks for me as a lot. I lost much less and this explain certainly parts of my difficulties.
While forging and heat welding the different layers of metal, I was always concerned about the amount of scale and oxidized material. And this clearly restricted my number of folds and the size of the metal billet. Well, apparently this is not a point to be concerned about, I have only to start with enough material !
My hold down tool does not work to my satisfaction and I have sometime difficulties in following Alan's methods to consolidate the weld.(hold down tool and heavier hammer) but if one forges with two peoples, one of them can replace the hold down tool !
If you can send a PDF of a stricker, I'd love that but I do promise to build one
I may try but I am not so sure it will fit in my workshop !
Thanks a lot
Regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 30th September 2007, 11:51 PM

Michel, my striker has at various times been one of my sons, my wife, or myself---with wife or son holding the tongs. Couple of times it has been people I've been teaching at the time.I have never had mechanical assistance.

My hold-down tool is a gooseneck that fits in the pritchel hole. You stick the billet under it, whack the bend in the gooseneck, which drives it down tight into the hole, then whack the billet. Not particularly effective, and constantly needs reshaping, but it does work, and the job can be done with it.

I was taught to forge with coal, and to weld, I had to coke the coal then weld. My teacher at that time was an oldtime blacksmith named Gordon Blackwell, and he taught me to weld by reading the fire. Depending on the type of material you are welding, when the material approaches weld heat the fire throws out different sparks. You observe the fire very closely and when you see the sparks you're looking for you take the weld.

Later on I learnt a different method of testing weld heat and that is I what I have used since I learnt it, no matter if I am using coke, charcoal or gas.

Make a poker out of half inch material and forge it to a point. When you feel that the material is coming into weld heat you touch the surface of the billet with the point of the poker, if it is ready to weld the surface will be just a wee bit sticky.It is best to keep the poker warm by passing it high through the flames. You do not take it wet out of the tub and try to test with it.

I have never used colour as an indicator for welding, it can be too misleading, and it varies according to the light coming into the forge. The colour of a billet ready to weld that is in an enclosed smithy is significantly different to the colour of a billet ready to weld that is outside under a tree.

In fact, if you are doing a lot of welding, you will get to the point where you can "feel" that the material is ready to weld. Its like there is an invisble line between you and the material in the fire and you just know when it is ready. A little bit of anhydrous borax can work wonders as a flux, especially in coke.

Richard Furrer · 1st October 2007, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact, if you are doing a lot of welding, you will get to the point where you can "feel" that the material is ready to weld. Its like there is an invisble line between you and the material in the fire and you just know when it is ready. A little bit of anhydrous borax can work wonders as a flux, especially in coke.

Alan,Michel,Graham and All,
I like borax..sometimes with some cast iron filings for a tricky weld..it goes liquid and baths the work.
I am lucky in that I have a rather fully tooled shop (50 weight hammer, 45 ton hydraulic press, small rolling mill and soon a 3B Nazel (265 weight air hammer) will be online.

I like pattern-welding quite a bit and like Alan says the "feel" comes in time, but gas does let you view the steel and take some liberties that are not possible in other fuels (like walking away to refill the coffee cup) while the billet cooks. I have done 45 pound billets of steel in the past, but rarely work over 20 pounds now..15 being the "normal" size for the tools I have.

I just finished this axe and sword for an exhibit. The blade is a yataghan varient with three bar composite (300 layer top and bottom with 150 layer center twist). The Axe is a five bar composite with three twisted layers and two straight..20 layer bar each.

Ric

Richard Furrer · 1st October 2007, 03:41 AM

Hello All,
Here are the shots that could not be viewed on the other forum.
If this and the previous message are too far outside this discussion please delete.

Raw materials (crucible,steel powder,meteorite,green glass)
Ingot cooking (note full safety gear..or lack ther of)
Ingot of smelted meteorite steel which was fored out and welded to modern 1084 steel for contrast
blade made from that billet..1600 layer twist with ivory and ebony
blade detail

Ric

Michel · 1st October 2007, 11:41 AM

Thank you Alan,
From each of your answers, I learn a lot.
I print them and make a file out of them. Invaluable.
How do they call these experts in Japan : living treasure ? I do not recall the exact name. This is what you are for me. thanks a lot.

Hi Richard,
You are indeed well equipped in your workshop and produce well made tools.
In your photos your show glass and crucible as raw materials.
What exactly is "crucible" ?
Why do you put green glass in your forging process ?
You utilize steel powder. Don't you loose a lot of this material before it is molten by oxidizing it and really burning it ?
What is the advantage of utilizing steel powder versus a piece of steel ?
Regards
Michel

30th September 2007, 04:11 PM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Forging with gas Hi Alan, You have sent a few very very interesting messages lately concerning forging. They have taught us a lot. Lemmythesmith may not have learned as much as my son and myself but I can tell you we did read and reread your messages, as you tell an awful lot in each. Now forging with gas is something that we have never really considered but reading you it is worth a close look at it. Among the advantages that I could hope for, isn't the fact that one can see much better the heated piece ? With charcoal it is always a problem as many pieces of charcoal are closing a precise view of the piece to be welded. If you have clean material, with practically no sparks at welding temperature, it is almost a "must" to have a good view of the piece to weld to judge the temperature by its color. Any other signs for judging the welding temp ? How do you do it with gas forging ? Thanks for all these informations Regards Michel

30th September 2007, 04:52 PM	#2
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Michel, first, the final weight of the patrem blade is about 87 grammes.. Second, judging welding heat without the sparks can be done by looking at the surface of the iron whilst it's in the fire-the surface will look like butter on a hot day, slightly molten. (the surface looks wet) Never used a gas forge so I can't comment-I've always used coke or charcoal. As for using a striker, I wish I still had this....... I have a PDF which has full drawings for building a similar tool, I'm currently constructing one half size, the page seems to be down at the moment so if you want the plans let me know and I'll email them to you. Regards, Graham. Attached Images

30th September 2007, 05:23 PM	#3
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Forging Hi Graham, Thank you for these information. You obviously have quite a bit of knowhow about forging and you learn less than I do here in reading Alan's messages. I knew that a substantial part of the metal was lost in forging and in stock removal but 86 % of the original metal weight looks for me as a lot. I lost much less and this explain certainly parts of my difficulties. While forging and heat welding the different layers of metal, I was always concerned about the amount of scale and oxidized material. And this clearly restricted my number of folds and the size of the metal billet. Well, apparently this is not a point to be concerned about, I have only to start with enough material ! My hold down tool does not work to my satisfaction and I have sometime difficulties in following Alan's methods to consolidate the weld.(hold down tool and heavier hammer) but if one forges with two peoples, one of them can replace the hold down tool ! If you can send a PDF of a stricker, I'd love that but I do promise to build one I may try but I am not so sure it will fit in my workshop ! Thanks a lot Regards Michel

1st October 2007, 03:41 AM	#6
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Hello All, Here are the shots that could not be viewed on the other forum. If this and the previous message are too far outside this discussion please delete. Raw materials (crucible,steel powder,meteorite,green glass) Ingot cooking (note full safety gear..or lack ther of) Ingot of smelted meteorite steel which was fored out and welded to modern 1084 steel for contrast blade made from that billet..1600 layer twist with ivory and ebony blade detail Ric Attached Images

1st October 2007, 11:41 AM	#7
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Forging Thank you Alan, From each of your answers, I learn a lot. I print them and make a file out of them. Invaluable. How do they call these experts in Japan : living treasure ? I do not recall the exact name. This is what you are for me. thanks a lot. Hi Richard, You are indeed well equipped in your workshop and produce well made tools. In your photos your show glass and crucible as raw materials. What exactly is "crucible" ? Why do you put green glass in your forging process ? You utilize steel powder. Don't you loose a lot of this material before it is molten by oxidizing it and really burning it ? What is the advantage of utilizing steel powder versus a piece of steel ? Regards Michel

30th September 2007, 11:51 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	Michel, my striker has at various times been one of my sons, my wife, or myself---with wife or son holding the tongs. Couple of times it has been people I've been teaching at the time.I have never had mechanical assistance. My hold-down tool is a gooseneck that fits in the pritchel hole. You stick the billet under it, whack the bend in the gooseneck, which drives it down tight into the hole, then whack the billet. Not particularly effective, and constantly needs reshaping, but it does work, and the job can be done with it. I was taught to forge with coal, and to weld, I had to coke the coal then weld. My teacher at that time was an oldtime blacksmith named Gordon Blackwell, and he taught me to weld by reading the fire. Depending on the type of material you are welding, when the material approaches weld heat the fire throws out different sparks. You observe the fire very closely and when you see the sparks you're looking for you take the weld. Later on I learnt a different method of testing weld heat and that is I what I have used since I learnt it, no matter if I am using coke, charcoal or gas. Make a poker out of half inch material and forge it to a point. When you feel that the material is coming into weld heat you touch the surface of the billet with the point of the poker, if it is ready to weld the surface will be just a wee bit sticky.It is best to keep the poker warm by passing it high through the flames. You do not take it wet out of the tub and try to test with it. I have never used colour as an indicator for welding, it can be too misleading, and it varies according to the light coming into the forge. The colour of a billet ready to weld that is in an enclosed smithy is significantly different to the colour of a billet ready to weld that is outside under a tree. In fact, if you are doing a lot of welding, you will get to the point where you can "feel" that the material is ready to weld. Its like there is an invisble line between you and the material in the fire and you just know when it is ready. A little bit of anhydrous borax can work wonders as a flux, especially in coke.