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Old 23rd March 2019, 03:27 PM   #1
Sajen
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Default Small Padsumbalin Panabas

Hello dear forum members,

have won recently a small padsumbalin panabas, it's just 55 cm (21.65") long. I very much doubt that this piece is an agricultural piece. And I never before have seen a small panabas with padsumbalin blade and I think that it is the first one ever shown at this place.
Any comments on this piece?

Regards,
Detlef
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Last edited by Robert : 27th March 2019 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:09 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello dear forum members,

have won recently a small padsumbalin panabas, it's just 55 cm (21.65") long. I very much doubt that this piece is an agricultural piece. And I never before have seen a small panabas with padsumbalin blade and I think that it is the first one ever shown at this place.
Any comments on this piece?

Regards,
Detlef


Hi sir Detlef,

Nice piece. However I'd like to differ and point out that- consistent with the size and form of traditional panabas being forged nowadays in Maguindanao- this seems to be an agricultural piece. The present-day panabas still bears resemblance to the old ones purportedly used in the battlefield or (I think more likely) for executions; but like many other Mindanao weapons, it's on a smaller scale so that it could better serve as an agricultural tool. Your piece may be the forerunner of the miniaturized versions of panabas today.
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Old 24th March 2019, 10:26 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
Hi sir Detlef,

Nice piece. However I'd like to differ and point out that- consistent with the size and form of traditional panabas being forged nowadays in Maguindanao- this seems to be an agricultural piece. The present-day panabas still bears resemblance to the old ones purportedly used in the battlefield or (I think more likely) for executions; but like many other Mindanao weapons, it's on a smaller scale so that it could better serve as an agricultural tool. Your piece may be the forerunner of the miniaturized versions of panabas today.


Hi Xas,

First, there is no need to call me Sir, Detlef is enough! I've doubt an agricultural purpose of this piece since there is a engraving near the spine of the blade which would be somewhat unusual for a agricultural tool but like always I could be wrong. It's the first small panabas with a padsumbalin blade I've seen but maybe there are others in the collections of our members!? Or are you have seen such a piece before?

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 24th March 2019, 05:28 PM   #4
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Here is a mini-Panabas that has a similar blade profile.
OAL = 18.25 in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix

panabas being forged nowadays in Maguindanao


I’m glad that the Panabas’ are still currently manufactured. Are they just sold locally or do they make their way to Cebu or Manila.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kino
Here is a mini-Panabas that has a similar blade profile.
OAL = 18.25 in.


Hello Albert,

Thank you for showing your nice example for comparison. It's the first other one I've seen until now.
Is it just my imagination or see I some nicks at the edge? Could this come from gardening? For me are nicks in an edge are a sign of combat use!? Such a small tabas would be very effective and fast in combat.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 25th March 2019, 02:28 AM   #6
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[QUOTE=Sajen]... For me are nicks in an edge are a sign of combat use!? .../QUOTE]


Probably not confirmation of use in combat IMHO. More likely some brittleness in a hardened edge which has chipped when striking something hard--a stone, hard piece of wood or metal, etc. (or even another weapon).
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:09 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
[QUOTE=Sajen]... For me are nicks in an edge are a sign of combat use!? .../QUOTE]


Probably not confirmation of use in combat IMHO. More likely some brittleness in a hardened edge which has chipped when striking something hard--a stone, hard piece of wood or metal, etc. (or even another weapon).
Ian


I second this. The blade can encounter accidents too during gardening
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Old 27th March 2019, 10:08 PM   #8
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Detlef, I hope that you do not mind but I have added a couple of photos edited to show the engraving on the blade a bit better. I have seen several other styles of smaller panabas before, but this is the first one with this particular blade style. Personally I would tend to believe that this piece would have been made to be used more as a weapon than just something intended to trim the grass. JMHO. Congratulations for another great catch and addition to your collection.

Best,
Robert
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:33 PM   #9
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I know this may not be a popular opinion. I do not think any of the Panabas where primarily a fighting weapon. Status symbol, execution device, clean up weapon after a battle but not primarily a fighting weapon. Not to say it could not or would not be used under the right circumstance. I have several and have seen and held a few more, IMHO they are too cumbersome and slow to be used in battle. A kalis, barong or spear would put the user of a panabas at very severe disadvantage. I also do not believe in the fear argument that they where used to strike fear into their opponents. I do not see a Moro being very fearful of an opponent coming at him with a panabas. I could see him smiling as he knows he is about to make him meet his maker.
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:12 PM   #10
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Very nice example Detlef, and looks to be of excellent quality. Congrats!
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Old 29th March 2019, 04:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted By mross
I know this may not be a popular opinion. I do not think any of the Panabas where primarily a fighting weapon. Status symbol, execution device, clean up weapon after a battle but not primarily a fighting weapon. Not to say it could not or would not be used under the right circumstance. I have several and have seen and held a few more, IMHO they are too cumbersome and slow to be used in battle. A kalis, barong or spear would put the user of a panabas at very severe disadvantage. I also do not believe in the fear argument that they where used to strike fear into their opponents. I do not see a Moro being very fearful of an opponent coming at him with a panabas. I could see him smiling as he knows he is about to make him meet his maker.


It was not my intent to infer that this style of panabas was ever meant to be used as a primary weapon in battle, but instead could have possibly been carried either as a secondary weapon or as you pointed out as a status symbol. I just do not believe that examples such as the one Detlef has shown here were made with the sole purpose of being used as nothing more than mere gardening tools.
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Old 29th March 2019, 03:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
It was not my intent to infer that this style of panabas was ever meant to be used as a primary weapon in battle, but instead could have possibly been carried either as a secondary weapon or as you pointed out as a status symbol. I just do not believe that examples such as the one Detlef has shown here were made with the sole purpose of being used as nothing more than mere gardening tools.


Hi Robert and Detlef, please understand my comment is in no way meant to belittle/slur the panabas in question (what would I give to have an antique like that), but rather as a context-setter / primer on how Moros fight, based on my research and experience on Moro Fighting Arts (MFA) and the invaluable info / advice of previous forum members.

In my opinion, the panabas is chiefly a Maguindanao weapon. While it may have been used in the battlefield, it is chiefly a sultan's bodyguard and execution weapon; it's the equivalent of shock and awe for the populace.

Now, why do I think it's not likely to have been used in battle?

1. There are better weapons. The oldest Moro weapon is the spear, and it's the mainstay in any conflict. Its exceptional range is a must in battlefield scenarios. The Moro warriors were not like the talibong-wielding Pulahanes of the Visayas who relied on guerilla tactics; theirs was the open battlefield kind of battle. If they relied solely on their barungs and kris, they would have been mowed down before they were able to use these in close-quarter combat. Enter the spear, which I think has not been getting enough attention in this forum. Before the kris or barung gets unsheated, it's the initial weapon, and is usually paired with a shield. If I were a Moro warrior and I had to choose a two-handed weapon, I would not choose the panabas, as it is:
a. Limited in range
b. Cumbersome
c. Too slow
d. Bigger samples are too heavy

2. It is not included in the list of traditional Maguindanao weapons. Based on a short 1970s ethnographic reference aptly entitled 'Maguindanaon', the traditional carry consists of spear, kris, and a large knife. You can see the wisdom in this array of weapons because they allow one to dominate at three different ranges of engagement; if you used the panabas as a secondary or primary, you would have to give up either the spear or the kris, which are, in my opinion, much better weapons.

3. The engraved symbols on the blade are decorative, not talismanic. Those who own multiple talismanic Moro blades in their collection will understand that there is a pattern or common motifs to engraved blades which are meant for killing. I've seen panabas before with a talismanic motif, and it's quite potent.

Hope this info helps!

Last edited by xasterix : 29th March 2019 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:27 PM   #13
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Very early this morning I returned from Zürich, the for sure very arduous journey was worth it's effort, first I've saved nearly half of the offered shipping costs, secondly I saved the custom tax since there is no tax on it when you bring it personal inside Germany (duty and tax-free allowance), third it's a very nice item, see the pics after a little TLC.
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
It was not my intent to infer that this style of panabas was ever meant to be used as a primary weapon in battle, but instead could have possibly been carried either as a secondary weapon or as you pointed out as a status symbol. I just do not believe that examples such as the one Detlef has shown here were made with the sole purpose of being used as nothing more than mere gardening tools.


No argument at all. I never mentioned gardening tool I was trying to point out and guess I did not do so well, that I think status symbol is their primary purpose. I have read many statements that the panabas is a formidable weapon. This I disagree with. I think the panabas mentioned here is meant as a status symbol. I don't think anyone would take the time to engrave a weed cutter. Now something used for Betel nuts is a different story entirely. I can easily see that being blinged out to the max.
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:51 PM   #15
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Probably not confirmation of use in combat IMHO. More likely some brittleness in a hardened edge which has chipped when striking something hard--a stone, hard piece of wood or metal, etc. (or even another weapon). [/QUOTE]

Hi Ian,

Yes, for sure there are different reasons for harmed edges, while Stones or metal by blow contact will cause break outs or bending a nick from edge to edge contact has a typical appearance when you look close. A damage from hard wood I hardly doubt, I've chopped some wood in my life, byself rusted nails in chopped wood get cut with no damage to the edge from the axe.
The damage/nicks by the blade in discussion not faultlessly determinable on first view.

Regards,
Detlef

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Old 29th March 2019, 06:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
Hi Robert and Detlef, please understand my comment is in no way meant to belittle/slur the panabas in question (what would I give to have an antique like that), but rather as a context-setter / primer on how Moros fight, based on my research and experience on Moro Fighting Arts (MFA) and the invaluable info / advice of previous forum members.


Hi Xas,

No problem and I very appreciate your previous words. But when I find typical combat nicks in the edge of a blade I know what was done with it. Sadly the damage in this case is not clear related due age, only a polish would bring out maybe more. And I wouldn't be angry or disappointed by an agricultre blade.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 29th March 2019, 06:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mross
I know this may not be a popular opinion. I do not think any of the Panabas where primarily a fighting weapon. Status symbol, execution device, clean up weapon after a battle but not primarily a fighting weapon. Not to say it could not or would not be used under the right circumstance. I have several and have seen and held a few more, IMHO they are too cumbersome and slow to be used in battle. A kalis, barong or spear would put the user of a panabas at very severe disadvantage. I also do not believe in the fear argument that they where used to strike fear into their opponents. I do not see a Moro being very fearful of an opponent coming at him with a panabas. I could see him smiling as he knows he is about to make him meet his maker.


Hello Mross,

I agree with you complete. I don't know next to nothing about MFA but I could imagine such a small panabas as second hand weapon.
But it's for sure a very good farmer tool too.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 29th March 2019, 06:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
Very nice example Detlef, and looks to be of excellent quality. Congrats!


Thank you Charles and indeed, like seen by the pictures it's a nice new toy!

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 29th March 2019, 06:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
It was not my intent to infer that this style of panabas was ever meant to be used as a primary weapon in battle, but instead could have possibly been carried either as a secondary weapon or as you pointed out as a status symbol. I just do not believe that examples such as the one Detlef has shown here were made with the sole purpose of being used as nothing more than mere gardening tools.


Hello Robert,

Agree with you that it would make very good second hand weapon. On the other side I could imagine it as farmer tool as well, the nicks don't speak a clear language and blade surface seems to be never been polished.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 29th March 2019, 06:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Xas,

No problem and I very appreciate your previous words. But when I find typical combat nicks in the edge of a blade I know what was done with it. Sadly the damage in this case is not clear related due age, only a polish would bring out maybe more. And I wouldn't be angry or disappointed by an agricultre blade.

Regards,
Detlef


Hi Detlef,

Now that the engraving is even clearer, I'm having second thoughts =)
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Old 29th March 2019, 06:48 PM   #21
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One thing I would like to point out. Edge damage is just that edge damage. While it's romantic to think it was earned in battle it is far more likely that a previous owner( non-warrior) did something stupid.
For instance I have a tomahawk that I put a paper slicing shaving sharp edge on. My son was using it to chop wood with his friend. The friend saw how well it chopped and decided to see if it would chop a brick in half, it did, the edge has never been the same.
Just saying, pretty much all of the ethno-blades we see if used for what they were intended for will not usually sustain damage. As to edge on edge damage in battle, could happen, but would be rare. Any warrior that knew what he was doing would avoid that. For the simple reason that it could damage his weapon.
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Old 30th March 2019, 10:40 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
Now that the engraving is even clearer, I'm having second thoughts =)


Hi Xas,

May I ask which ones?

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 30th March 2019, 10:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mross
As to edge on edge damage in battle, could happen, but would be rare. Any warrior that knew what he was doing would avoid that. For the simple reason that it could damage his weapon.


Hello Mross,

I disagree with your point. How you want to avoid a edge to edge contact in a battle when it going about your life? And a good blade will receive only a very small nick/damage from edge to edge contact. I can show several blades with nicks in the edge where it's very clear from what they orginated. An edge to edge contact is very clear to seen by many blades which are fighting weapons instead of status weapons. Just my humble opinion.

Regards,
Detlef

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Old 30th March 2019, 12:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Xas,

May I ask which ones?

Regards,
Detlef


Hi Detlef,

The one near the tip. Seems like a beak or something.

Regarding edge-on-edge contact, it's mortal sin for BangsaMoros- especially the Tausug- for their blades to clash with another's. While I know everything will be chaos, I'm inclined to believe that edge-on-edge contact rarely happened during Moro battles. Moro Fighting Arts has a different mode of entry with weapons than the usual entry of European or FMA styles which greatly minimizes edge-on-edge contact.

That being said, I'm now 50/50 with regard to whether this was designed to be a weapon or not. If ever it was, it must have been a highly experimental one.
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Old 30th March 2019, 01:03 PM   #25
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Regarding nicks in a edge, here are pictures from a Mindanao kris in my collection which has several nicks in the edges. From what they shall originate when not from edge to edge contact? Only a sharp and hard edge would be possible to let such a damage in a fighting blade IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 30th March 2019, 01:06 PM   #26
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Hello Detlef, Now that you have your beautiful new toy in hand I have a couple of questions. Is the metal on the end of the hilt a simple band or is it an actual cap that completely covers the end? If this is a cap would it be possible to carefully remove it to see if the hilt has been weighted (usually with lead) to balance this piece? If it is only a band, is there any sign of the hilts end ever having being weighted such as a lead slug or a now empty hole where a weight might have been? My reason for asking is that I have seen this done on some of the other small panabas that I have been fortunate enough to handle over the years. If the hilt on your example has been weighted for balance it would tend to add to my belief that this was originally made not only as a status piece but as a weapon as well. This of course is only my personal opinion and like many times before I could be completely wrong in my assumption. My congratulations to you on being able to add such a wonderful and rare item to your collection.

Best,
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Old 30th March 2019, 01:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
Hello Detlef, Now that you have your beautiful new toy in hand I have a couple of questions. Is the metal on the end of the hilt a simple band or is it an actual cap that completely covers the end? If this is a cap would it be possible to carefully remove it to see if the hilt has been weighted (usually with lead) to balance this piece? If it is only a band, is there any sign of the hilts end ever having being weighted such as a lead slug or a now empty hole where a weight might have been? My reason for asking is that I have seen this done on some of the other small panabas that I have been fortunate enough to handle over the years. If the hilt on your example has been weighted for balance it would tend to add to my belief that this was originally made not only as a status piece but as a weapon as well. This of course is only my personal opinion and like many times before I could be completely wrong in my assumption. My congratulations to you on being able to add such a wonderful and rare item to your collection.


Hello Robert,
It's simple a band and there is no hole where once could have been lead attached to give the panabas a better handling weight. The patination from the wood at the handle is very well patinated so it was handled many times over some decades. Like said, I am very happy with it equal if it was a stutus piece, a farmer tool or even a weapon. Thank you very much for the compliment!

Best regards,
Detlef
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Old 30th March 2019, 01:25 PM   #28
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Quote:
Like said, I am very happy with it equal if it was a stutus piece, a farmer tool or even a weapon.


I would as well.
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Old 30th March 2019, 02:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
Hi Detlef,

The one near the tip. Seems like a beak or something.

Regarding edge-on-edge contact, it's mortal sin for BangsaMoros- especially the Tausug- for their blades to clash with another's. While I know everything will be chaos, I'm inclined to believe that edge-on-edge contact rarely happened during Moro battles. Moro Fighting Arts has a different mode of entry with weapons than the usual entry of European or FMA styles which greatly minimizes edge-on-edge contact.

That being said, I'm now 50/50 with regard to whether this was designed to be a weapon or not. If ever it was, it must have been a highly experimental one.


I've meant which other thoughts?
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Old 30th March 2019, 03:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Regarding nicks in a edge, here are pictures from a Mindanao kris in my collection which has several nicks in the edges. From what they shall originate when not from edge to edge contact? Only a sharp and hard edge would be possible to let such a damage in a fighting blade IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef


Hi Detlef, the following possibilities come to mind with regard to your kris:

1. It may have been used by one from the non-Muslim tribes.. This has happened quite often in the past, especially with the BangsaMoro's open trading policy with some of the Mindanao tribes like the Bagobo and T'boli. There have been many instances when kris (usually the straight ones) were even re-hilted with the non-Muslim tribes' signature hilt, an indication that it was traded in or sold to the tribesmen.

2. It may have been a captured piece and used by a non-Mindanaon (or even non-Filipino) elsewhere in the war.

3. Quite unlikely, but it may have been kept in a weapons locker on a bumpy transpo ride and gotten the nicks from other blades. This has happened to at least one antique blade which was previously in my possession.

I can't emphasize enough how the BangsaMoro frown on edge-to-edge contact. They regard their blades not only as weapons but as cultural artifacts of the highest order; if I remember correctly, my MFA instructor even said that direct blade work / non-blocking / non-blade-to-blade contact was ingrained to them as deeply as their aversion to pork.
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