Cut down shamshir?

ALEX · 3rd December 2008, 10:37 PM

The daggers with signed blades are quite rare, and most are formed from the cut down shamshir blades. Can this be taken as a proven fact? We can assume that the broken shamshir blade could have received a new life in a form of a dagger/kard, etc. in the past, but could the dagger/kard be originally created with the signed blade, just like shamshir would? Most interestingly, is there a way to tell:-)?
Below is an example of a signed in true gold inlay (AssadUllah+Shah Abbas Safavid) kard with the heavy 10''+ long and 1.25 wide laddered/Kirked Nardubanned:-) wootz blade. I know that most of us will assume it used to be a shamshir, but would love to hear some arguments/opinions.
Thanks to all!

spiral · 3rd December 2008, 10:45 PM

Nice wootz, interesting that the handle shows no visible rivets on a full through tang though. Looks like re handled at least.

Spiral

ALEX · 3rd December 2008, 10:50 PM

Last year++ ago I saw similar dagger sold by Ward on E-Bay. Do not remember details, but it also was AA signed and with nice wootz pattern. Hope Ward will know more to elaborate. Ward, do you remember if the cartouche was near the center of the blade of near the base, and is it important/means anything at all? Thanks!

ALEX · 3rd December 2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Nice wootz, interesting that the handle shows no visible rivets on a full through tang though. Looks like re handled at least.
Spiral

Thanks Spiral! It is indeed nicely forged and complex pattern.
Good observation and comment about the hilt. I did not mention it earlier, but it is definitely later replacement, even though it's ivory or walrus, it lacks proper patina, coloration, etc. Not sure if presence of rivets would indicate anything other than the method of hilt mounting, as some original hilts come mounted without rivets (ref: Manouchehr Korassani "Arms and Armor from Iran", pages 615-613, 622).

spiral · 4th December 2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Not sure if presence of rivets would indicate anything other than the method of hilt mounting, as some original hilts come mounted without rivets (ref: Manouchehr Korassani "Arms and Armor from Iran", pages 615-613, 622).

Thank you Alex, I wasnt aware of that, fascinating!

Spiral

ariel · 4th December 2008, 03:57 PM

I do not think it was born as shamshir.
Look at the border between the blade and the bolster: the edge goes a little bit up, somewhat similar to pesh kabzes etc.
No need to create such a configuration from a shamshir blade; it was made exactly that way.

ALEX · 4th December 2008, 04:38 PM

Ariel, Thank you for the comment and it is neat as always. I noticed a nice, pesh-like curvature to the blade as well, and initially thought it was an original design. Do you think the center-positioned cartouche and fairly wide placed kirk rants (there are only 5 rants at each side) indicate othervise? Thanks again.

ward · 4th December 2008, 10:29 PM

Alex mine had the cartouches closer to the ferrule than yours and the lower one was a lion. Also the blade had a pretty strong fuller along the spine.
I think you have to take these on a case by case basis no hard and fast rule. Some were probaly made as daggers others from sword blades.
Nice piece

Gonzalo G · 5th December 2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Not sure if presence of rivets would indicate anything other than the method of hilt mounting, as some original hilts come mounted without rivets (ref: Manouchehr Korassani "Arms and Armor from Iran", pages 615-613, 622).

How does the slabs are secured in this type of hilt? By some kind of glueing?
Regards

ALEX · 5th December 2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

How does the slabs are secured in this type of hilt? By some kind of glueing?
Regards

The slabs are still held by pins, but the pins remain "hidden" and do not penetrate the slabs throughout, but deep enough to provide a hold without coming out.
Also common on shamshirs... just like on my Avatar picture:-)
Esthetically it makes a good alternative to driving a metal rod through the ivory for the mounting purposes.

Gonzalo G · 5th December 2008, 08:08 PM

Thank you for the information, Alex. I have seen this refinement in modern artistic sword mounts, but I didn´t know how they were made on this specific weapons. You have a truly great piece over there. I personally don´t think it comes from a broken sword. Is the blade very thick at the beginning? Because it´s general form does not seem to come form the point of a shamshir.
Regards

Gonzalo

3rd December 2008, 10:37 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Cut down shamshir? The daggers with signed blades are quite rare, and most are formed from the cut down shamshir blades. Can this be taken as a proven fact? We can assume that the broken shamshir blade could have received a new life in a form of a dagger/kard, etc. in the past, but could the dagger/kard be originally created with the signed blade, just like shamshir would? Most interestingly, is there a way to tell:-)? Below is an example of a signed in true gold inlay (AssadUllah+Shah Abbas Safavid) kard with the heavy 10''+ long and 1.25 wide laddered/Kirked Nardubanned:-) wootz blade. I know that most of us will assume it used to be a shamshir, but would love to hear some arguments/opinions. Thanks to all! Attached Images

3rd December 2008, 10:45 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Nice wootz, interesting that the handle shows no visible rivets on a full through tang though. Looks like re handled at least. Spiral

3rd December 2008, 10:50 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Last year++ ago I saw similar dagger sold by Ward on E-Bay. Do not remember details, but it also was AA signed and with nice wootz pattern. Hope Ward will know more to elaborate. Ward, do you remember if the cartouche was near the center of the blade of near the base, and is it important/means anything at all? Thanks!

4th December 2008, 03:57 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not think it was born as shamshir. Look at the border between the blade and the bolster: the edge goes a little bit up, somewhat similar to pesh kabzes etc. No need to create such a configuration from a shamshir blade; it was made exactly that way.

4th December 2008, 04:38 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Ariel, Thank you for the comment and it is neat as always. I noticed a nice, pesh-like curvature to the blade as well, and initially thought it was an original design. Do you think the center-positioned cartouche and fairly wide placed kirk rants (there are only 5 rants at each side) indicate othervise? Thanks again.

4th December 2008, 10:29 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Alex mine had the cartouches closer to the ferrule than yours and the lower one was a lion. Also the blade had a pretty strong fuller along the spine. I think you have to take these on a case by case basis no hard and fast rule. Some were probaly made as daggers others from sword blades. Nice piece

5th December 2008, 08:08 PM	#11
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Thank you for the information, Alex. I have seen this refinement in modern artistic sword mounts, but I didn´t know how they were made on this specific weapons. You have a truly great piece over there. I personally don´t think it comes from a broken sword. Is the blade very thick at the beginning? Because it´s general form does not seem to come form the point of a shamshir. Regards Gonzalo