Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 18th October 2011, 02:35 PM   #1
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
Default Prehistoric stone battle axe

Hi

I wonder if there are any forumites who have an interest in prehistoric weapons, and a specialist knowledge of these ?

Here is a stone battle axe head that I acquired recently, along with some stone tools. Its a large, heavy piece, length about 28cm. I'm thinking maybe of Danish origin. Can anyone tell me more about it etc ?

Regards.
Attached Images
   
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2011, 04:06 PM   #2
mrwizard
Member
 
mrwizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Dortmund, Germany
Posts: 102
Default

Very well made piece.
My uneducated guess is that it could be a jutland stone axe:
http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de...htm#Tafel%2013

Best Regards,
Thilo
mrwizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2011, 05:05 PM   #3
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Very nice looking piece, Colin.
I (as certainly a lot more people out there) think that, the reason you don't find a lot more enthusiasts gathering and collecting this kind of prehistoric stuff is that, unless their provenance is "bullet-proof", you take a 99,5 % risk of acquiring fakes.
It is good that Thilo posted a link to track its ID.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2011, 09:17 AM   #4
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Default

Hello Fernando,

Quote:
the reason you don't find a lot more enthusiasts gathering and collecting this kind of prehistoric stuff is that, unless their provenance is "bullet-proof", you take a 99,5 % risk of acquiring fakes.
Is it that bad, currently? I remember the times when many farmers had collections of pieces gathered from their own fields...

A good magnifying glass comes in handy for sure: scratches as well as patina from genuine use are tough to fake. Patina from being buried in the soil does help, too. Status pieces which may not have seen much use (if any) and made from certain stones may be more difficult to evaluate though.

BTW, while this axe is European, I reckon this thread may be better suited for the main forum, isn't it? The time frame is quite distinct from what is discussed here in the armoury and I see no point in discussing neolithic pieces in different fora depending on wether they originate from Europe vs., say, America or the near East.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2011, 09:30 AM   #5
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
Default

Thanks to those who responded on this item, especially to mrwizard for the interesting link.

Fernando, how do you arrive at the 99.5% figure ??

Regards.
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2011, 04:24 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
... Fernando, how do you arrive at the 99.5% figure ?? ...
First of all Colin, i was referring to your "wandering if there are any forumites who have an interest in prehistoric weapons" and not at all to the provenance of your axe.
Secondly and naturaly my 99,5% quote doesn't arrive from any statistics calculation, being no more than a graphic expression meaning that, after what i have learnt, the chances to spot a fake pre-historic artifact in the general markets out there, are significantly higher than those of dealing with the authentic stuff.
I happen to be a fan of antiquity, but after i went through my first (and only) experience with a couple bronze axes that ended up being "authentic" knockoffs, i decided to re-date the starting of this theme to a "sine die" status.
If you have the time to go HERE you will read some interesting posts from members weaving considerations on such issue.
By the way, after some time i incidently ended up finding out the origin of my axes ... replicas cast with moulds made out of genuine specimens ... belonging to a self assumed owner.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2011, 07:29 PM   #7
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,734
Default

Stone looks far too soft, chips are new.. Looks like a bronze axe shape.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2011, 07:32 PM   #8
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi 'Nando,

Though this is not my field of expertise, from all I have heard from the international market, I cannot but comply with your experience! German auction houses have tended for years not to accept 'prehistoric' items unless they have a documented provenance of at least before 1960. As far as I have heard both Stone and Bronze Age artifacts are being faked at large, mainly in Eastern European countries. Those guys even use fragments of historic bronzes to cast desired items - they are said to not even be told apart even by by refined scientific methods (apart from the fact that such an investigation would be costly far beyond the item's actual value) ...

Neolithic stone axe blades like yours without safe provenance would currently start at an estimate of ca. 20 to 30 euro (15 to 33 USD). Most of them remain unsold ...

Best,
Michl

Last edited by Matchlock; 22nd October 2011 at 03:05 AM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2011, 07:58 PM   #9
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

THE DAINISH STONE WORK IS SOME OF THE BEST IN EUROPE SO HAS BEEN IN DEMAND FOR A LONG TIME SO THE PRICES HAVE BEEN HIGHER THAN FOR LOTS OF OTHER STONE ARTEFACTS. THE MORE RARE AND HIGHER PRICED PIECES ARE ALWAYS THE ONES A MAKER OF FAKES WANTS TO MAKE (DANISH STONE DAGGERS FOR EXAMPLE).
THAT BEING SAID THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE AUTHENTIC STONE IMPLEMENTS OUT THERE THAN FAKES ESPECIALLY IN THE MORE SIMPLE INEXPENSIVE FORMS. THE WORKMANSHIP ON YOUR AX LOOKS GOOD AS FAR AS I CAN TELL FROM PICTURES , YOUR EXAMPLE USING THE GRINDING AND PECKING METHODS FOR SHAPEING AND THEN SMOOTHING FOR A FINISH SHOULD BE EASY FOR AN EXPERT TO AUTHENTICATE (OR NOT )
THE ITEM HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE VALUABLE SO IS PROBABLY WORTH GETTING SOMEONE TO DO A PAPER OF AUTHENTICATION ON IT. THE FELLOWS WHO DO THAT OVER HERE USUALLY CHARGE $25.00 IF THEY DO THE PAPER AND IF THEY DETERMINE ITS NOT OLD WHICH USUALLY TAKES A VERY FEW MOMENTS THEY DON'T DO THE PAPER AND IN MY CASE DO NOT CHARGE.
IN THE USA THERE ARE MORE AUTHENTIC POINTS AROUND AND IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO LOOK NOT TOO DIFFICULT TO FIND BUT COMPETICIAN IS FIERCE AS THERE ARE MANY WHO HUNT THEM. MOST FLINT KNAPPERS SELL THEIR POINTS AS REPLICAS BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO WILL BUY TO RESELL AS AUTHENTIC SO CARE MUST BE TAKEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW A DEALER.
A NICE LOOKING AX I HOPE YOU FIND IT TO BE THE REAL DEAL, GOOD LUCK

PICTURES OF 3 DANISH KNAPPED FLINT DAGGERS SUPPOSIDLY REAL BUT NICE FORMS
REPLICA DANISH DAGGER ON YELLOW BACKGROUND MADE OF MOOKITE
REPLICA DANISH DAGGER MADE OF GLASS, MINE I REFER TO IT AS THE CATHEDERAL POINT AS IT REMINDS ME OF A STAINED GLASS WINDOW.
Attached Images
     

Last edited by VANDOO; 21st October 2011 at 08:11 PM.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd October 2011, 10:12 AM   #10
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,734
Default

According to "Stone Axe Studies 111, Vin Davis, Mark Edmonds" This axe is modelled on Grave goods axes from Bohemia. Finds of these date from the "eneolithic period" in other words the early bronze age. The fact that most are found intact and the halting holes are small they would not fun ction as war axes. Along with grave goods they may have been worn suspended. Currently there are 18 known burial sites contianing these axes. There are miniture version, clay and antler models. The stone axes are limestone. Limestone is soft but properly halft more than hard enough to stove a human head in.

The big question is yours genuine? For a soft stone there is a remarkable lack of natural soil acid attack on the polished stone surface.
Attached Images
 
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.