Kindjal? for ID please

Oliver Pinchot · 23rd January 2021, 12:05 AM

This is Circassian work. The Circassian diaspora brought ~ 700,000 to the Ottoman Empire. Many served in the military, they were often stationed in the Ottoman provinces of Syria, Iraq and Egypt. So, very good old Circassian weapons often show up there.

Oliver Pinchot · 23rd January 2021, 12:11 AM

It would be interesting to know why Kubur says this kindjal is not from the 18th century.

kronckew · 23rd January 2021, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

It would be interesting to know why Kubur says this kindjal is not from the 18th century.

Date is clearly 1208 hjiri which is Gregorian 1794.

Kubur · 23rd January 2021, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

It would be interesting to know why Kubur says this kindjal is not from the 18th century.

Yes, me too, I would be interested to know why!

In fact, I will happily change my mind if you have some 18th c similar examples

Ren Ren · 23rd January 2021, 05:31 PM

Being a pessimist is great! Each time you are either right or pleasantly surprised.

Tracy · 25th January 2021, 11:21 PM

I have since found a 1972 letter from the Royal Ontario Museum that dated it at 1793 and translated the inscription to likely be the name of the craftsman: Sadr al-Din ibn Mustafa. Fayum is also mentioned, possibly meaning that is was made in the Fayum District of Egypt. I've attached closer photos of the fuller on both sides and there are groves parallel to the fuller but otherwise nothing that looks like twist core. Thanks for introducing me to these new terms! My mother also mentioned that my grandfather told her he was given the sword from a friend (possible relative?) back in the 30's when they were both having fun with motorcycles and archeological digs. The friend was a rather famous fellow who spent a great deal of time in Egypt during WWI, and the sword had been presented to him. That's all I know for now. Thanks for your replies and more comments are very welcome!

Kubur · 26th January 2021, 08:24 AM

I'm not pessimistic, just realistic

I mentioned the two dates, but this kindjal smells the 19th c.
And I don't know 18th c. kindjals. Oliver knows better and he said Egypt.
Cairo most likely. Kiwatek will probably explain why Fayum is mentioned.
It's interesting that the blade maker stamp was removed, probably because it was made of gold.

ALEX · 26th January 2021, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I'm not pessimistic, just realistic

I mentioned the two dates, but this kindjal smells the 19th c.
And I don't know 18th c. kindjals. Oliver knows better and he said Egypt.
Cairo most likely. Kiwatek will probably explain why Fayum is mentioned.
It's interesting that the blade maker stamp was removed, probably because it was made of gold.

I think Oliver mentioned Chircassian work that was brought over to other countries including Egypt, not made in Egypt.

As for dating, it's unlikely we can claim with certainly the work to be 19th and not 18th Century due to being a few years too early from when 19thC began

Ren Ren · 26th January 2021, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

It's interesting that the blade maker stamp was removed, probably because it was made of gold.

You have a keen eye and this is an important note.

25th January 2021, 11:21 PM	#6
Tracy Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Location: British Columbia Posts: 4	I have since found a 1972 letter from the Royal Ontario Museum that dated it at 1793 and translated the inscription to likely be the name of the craftsman: Sadr al-Din ibn Mustafa. Fayum is also mentioned, possibly meaning that is was made in the Fayum District of Egypt. I've attached closer photos of the fuller on both sides and there are groves parallel to the fuller but otherwise nothing that looks like twist core. Thanks for introducing me to these new terms! My mother also mentioned that my grandfather told her he was given the sword from a friend (possible relative?) back in the 30's when they were both having fun with motorcycles and archeological digs. The friend was a rather famous fellow who spent a great deal of time in Egypt during WWI, and the sword had been presented to him. That's all I know for now. Thanks for your replies and more comments are very welcome! Attached Images

23rd January 2021, 12:05 AM	#1
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	This is Circassian work. The Circassian diaspora brought ~ 700,000 to the Ottoman Empire. Many served in the military, they were often stationed in the Ottoman provinces of Syria, Iraq and Egypt. So, very good old Circassian weapons often show up there.

23rd January 2021, 12:11 AM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	It would be interesting to know why Kubur says this kindjal is not from the 18th century.

23rd January 2021, 05:31 PM	#5
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 365	Being a pessimist is great! Each time you are either right or pleasantly surprised.

26th January 2021, 08:24 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I'm not pessimistic, just realistic I mentioned the two dates, but this kindjal smells the 19th c. And I don't know 18th c. kindjals. Oliver knows better and he said Egypt. Cairo most likely. Kiwatek will probably explain why Fayum is mentioned. It's interesting that the blade maker stamp was removed, probably because it was made of gold.