Where is this sheat from?

Rick · 14th May 2010, 02:42 AM

I wonder if this is not a composite keris ; I'm betting most likely it is .

The Madura jejeran; the handle does not line up with the 'thorn' on the wrongko .

I cannot place the scabbard .

A picture of the keris; perhaps ?

Sajen · 14th May 2010, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if this is not a composite keris ; I'm betting most likely it is .

The Madura jejeran; the handle does not line up with the 'thorn' on the wrongko .

I cannot place the scabbard .

Yes, of course a composite keris and I am also sure that the blade not original to the sheat since the middle of the jejeran not line up with the "Ri cangkring" of the wrongko.

I've bought it because the sheat. Is it maybe a coteng form?

This is my hope!

The blade is a very poor one, this suggest the picture and seems to be from Java or Madura.

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2010, 04:28 AM

Not all keris have always been dressed according to the high standards of late 19th century, through to 21st century connoisseurs.

I have seen a great many keris from various areas that do not follow what current collectors consider to be correct, in that blades are a poor fit in wrongkos, alignment of hilt to wrongko is poor, and in general, the keris have simply been not very neat. However, these keris I have in mind have not been what we think of when we talk of composites, rather, they have been keris that were collected in SE Asia pre-WWII and in some cases, have been genuine old keris held by families in Jawa.

In times past - and for that matter, today also, not every blade is going to have its own individually bespoke wrongko crafted for it. If a near enough fit can be achieved by use of a used wrongko, that is often good enough. Not all people in Jawa now, or in the past, could afford to pay a maker to produce the perfect wrongko for a keris, they would use wrongkos in various stages of completion bought ready made from the market, and finish the fitting themselves.

We're used to see perfection as the benchmark, but in reality, this is a pretty recent phenomenon. People in the past living in rural villages far removed from centers of power did the best they could with what they could get, and this was often very far from perfect.

We should not label a keris as "composite", just because it falls short of perfection in fit and finish.

In respect of this wrongko, I'm inclined to think it might be an old North Coast Jawa one. I have a similar one that has a probably reliable provenance of 19th century Cirebon area.

Marcokeris · 14th May 2010, 07:35 AM

Also i think the sarong comes from Cirebon area.

Moshah · 14th May 2010, 01:26 PM

I believe the sheath belongs to tajong / coteng family, from northern Malaysia or southern Thai.

If any of you happen to be in possession of "Spirit of Wood" by Noor, Farish A., turn to page 169 where there are schematic drawing of the sheath of keris tajong. According to the diagram, the carving on crosspiece representing "the third eye of Shiva", the hindu God.

Also, referring to Sajen's post #3 (the mirrored picture), below the right crosspiece is a flat panel called "bahu" (shoulder), which I've only seen in coteng sampir so far. This "bahu" feature is identical to the attached picture of a coteng below, albeit Sajen's was more pronounced.

Therefore I strongly suspect that Sajen has found himself a coteng sheath. And it happen to be a one-piece-construction coteng sheath too (no cross section that i can see from the pic).

I personally think this is a great find, no matter of what keris u might have inside. Cotengs are hard to come by, so it is the right thing not to miss it!

p/s - what do you all meant by "composite keris"?

Gustav · 14th May 2010, 02:43 PM

I also have seen images where similar sheaths with North-coast Java and Madura hilts are depicted. This sheath form probably have a resemblance with early ladrang forms from Java.

If this sheath is North-coastal, is it rather atypical becouse of no central ridge, or is there a pendok intended? Could we expect such sheath form from Madura?

I am curios how this keris fits the sheath and to see the blade itself. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

Sajen · 14th May 2010, 05:05 PM

Thank you all for comment. So we have two opinions from where this sheat comes from, Cirebon or a Coteng from northern Peninsula. This two options have been in my mind whereas I would prefer the second!

Would be interesting what our members from Singapore think about.

Sajen · 14th May 2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

Hope so!

14th May 2010, 01:26 PM	#5
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	I believe the sheath belongs to tajong / coteng family, from northern Malaysia or southern Thai. If any of you happen to be in possession of "Spirit of Wood" by Noor, Farish A., turn to page 169 where there are schematic drawing of the sheath of keris tajong. According to the diagram, the carving on crosspiece representing "the third eye of Shiva", the hindu God. Also, referring to Sajen's post #3 (the mirrored picture), below the right crosspiece is a flat panel called "bahu" (shoulder), which I've only seen in coteng sampir so far. This "bahu" feature is identical to the attached picture of a coteng below, albeit Sajen's was more pronounced. Therefore I strongly suspect that Sajen has found himself a coteng sheath. And it happen to be a one-piece-construction coteng sheath too (no cross section that i can see from the pic). I personally think this is a great find, no matter of what keris u might have inside. Cotengs are hard to come by, so it is the right thing not to miss it! p/s - what do you all meant by "composite keris"? Attached Images

14th May 2010, 02:42 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	I wonder if this is not a composite keris ; I'm betting most likely it is . The Madura jejeran; the handle does not line up with the 'thorn' on the wrongko . I cannot place the scabbard . A picture of the keris; perhaps ?

14th May 2010, 04:28 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Not all keris have always been dressed according to the high standards of late 19th century, through to 21st century connoisseurs. I have seen a great many keris from various areas that do not follow what current collectors consider to be correct, in that blades are a poor fit in wrongkos, alignment of hilt to wrongko is poor, and in general, the keris have simply been not very neat. However, these keris I have in mind have not been what we think of when we talk of composites, rather, they have been keris that were collected in SE Asia pre-WWII and in some cases, have been genuine old keris held by families in Jawa. In times past - and for that matter, today also, not every blade is going to have its own individually bespoke wrongko crafted for it. If a near enough fit can be achieved by use of a used wrongko, that is often good enough. Not all people in Jawa now, or in the past, could afford to pay a maker to produce the perfect wrongko for a keris, they would use wrongkos in various stages of completion bought ready made from the market, and finish the fitting themselves. We're used to see perfection as the benchmark, but in reality, this is a pretty recent phenomenon. People in the past living in rural villages far removed from centers of power did the best they could with what they could get, and this was often very far from perfect. We should not label a keris as "composite", just because it falls short of perfection in fit and finish. In respect of this wrongko, I'm inclined to think it might be an old North Coast Jawa one. I have a similar one that has a probably reliable provenance of 19th century Cirebon area.

14th May 2010, 07:35 AM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Also i think the sarong comes from Cirebon area.

14th May 2010, 02:43 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,204	I also have seen images where similar sheaths with North-coast Java and Madura hilts are depicted. This sheath form probably have a resemblance with early ladrang forms from Java. If this sheath is North-coastal, is it rather atypical becouse of no central ridge, or is there a pendok intended? Could we expect such sheath form from Madura? I am curios how this keris fits the sheath and to see the blade itself. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

14th May 2010, 05:05 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,574	Thank you all for comment. So we have two opinions from where this sheat comes from, Cirebon or a Coteng from northern Peninsula. This two options have been in my mind whereas I would prefer the second! Would be interesting what our members from Singapore think about.