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Old 6th January 2018, 09:18 AM   #1
La Pagaru
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Default bugis keris

various types of rare bugis keris variations
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Old 6th January 2018, 11:42 AM   #2
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Hello La Pagaru,
Thank you for these pictures, do you know if these blades are old or recent?
The bottom blade has a pamor pattern looking like Ron Genduru but not finely made by Javanese srandards.
Regards
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Old 6th January 2018, 07:09 PM   #3
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Interesting examples.
I don't think i would qualify the second example as Bugis. I do not see classic elements of Bugis construction or style in that one. What about this keris identifies this keris as Bugis for you. It also seems like a rather new creation that follows a more modern expression of artistic keris styles rather than adhering to any particular traditional "pakem".
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Old 6th January 2018, 07:13 PM   #4
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Default dear jean

hello jean, how are you ,,
of course this is the old kris, a little explanation about the variant of the existing bugis keris, which we must know, the bugis forging system is slightly different from the Javanese kris, and the difficulty level is much harder than the Javanese kris according to the recognition of some masters in Java and Madura, pamor luwu derived from his own bugis land, (which was even in use by majapahit kingdom since the 14th century) according to the written from various ancient records that exist. even import of luwu pamor material for kris jawa, still last until 1900, with very high price. I hope there is a friend here can facilitate us to make an exhibition in europe specializing bugis heritage, so that the perception during this time about the bugis keris can change, we must know the influence of very big bugis keris, sumatra, kalimantan, melayu, lombok, bima, malaysia, singapura even filiphine,
best regrads
LP
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Old 6th January 2018, 07:22 PM   #5
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Default dear david

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Interesting examples.
I don't think i would qualify the second example as Bugis. I do not see classic elements of Bugis construction or style in that one. What about this keris identifies this keris as Bugis for you. It also seems like a rather new creation that follows a more modern expression of artistic keris styles rather than adhering to any particular traditional "pakem".


how are you david,
that is kris bugis, many who do not know kris bugis, most people equate it with javanese kris, but many things that make it much different than javanese kris, as I described above, that many pakem' or ricikan kris bugis that many people do not know , especially those in europe, in bugis own land many variants of kris bugis that rarely published or even not shown to others because in bugis land still strongly believe in the mystical things that exist and is contained in a keris or other heirloom.
Perhaps friends here never heard of a kingdom named luwu kerajan that exist in the land bugis, the beginning of the establishment of kingdom luwu, coinciding with the birth of metallurgical culture, especially the use of iron for weapons heirlooms and so forth .. where one of the iron which is considered magical and most sought after is Luwu iron (Ussu iron).
there are several versions of it, such as .konon kris making or weapons in that era is a kind of guns berpamor, which one of them is Ussu iron from Luwu which contain lots of meteorite and nickel, so that Luwu iron (ussu) become material the main prestige of making in the manufacture of kris, in the book Encyclopedia Keris mentioned that the iron Luwu market known as Bessi Pamorro, until the year 1920 is still found in the market of Salatiga with perkilo price equivalent to 50 kg of rice

best regrads

LP

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Old 6th January 2018, 08:11 PM   #6
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Default luwu iron

dear all
this is an example of a luwu iron sample from the bottom of the lake matano luwu sulawesi south (bugis land), in the shape of a sword, we deliberately cut it so we can examine the content contained therein, the sword is estimated to date from the 7th century AD.

The world’s largest nickel-mining complex is located in the southern of lake Matano, which has led speculation that bickellifeous iron ore from the Matano area was smelted to produce the famous Pamor Luwu used in Majapaahit Krisses”.


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Old 6th January 2018, 09:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Pagaru
there are several versions of it, such as .konon kris making or weapons in that era is a kind of guns berpamor, which one of them is Ussu iron from Luwu which contain lots of meteorite and nickel, so that Luwu iron (ussu) become material the main prestige of making in the manufacture of kris, in the book Encyclopedia Keris mentioned that the iron Luwu market known as Bessi Pamorro, until the year 1920 is still found in the market of Salatiga with perkilo price equivalent to 50 kg of rice

Hi LP. Yes, i believe that many, if not most of us are aware of pamor Luwu and it's source from Sulawesi. It was a highly valued source of iron for a good period of time and does indeed seem to have been used in the forging of old Javanese keris. However, this is a material, not a forged and finished keris. Iron from Luwu was well known to have a relatively high nickel content but my understanding was that it was entirely terrestrial. Can you point to any references that maintain such ore also contained "lots of meteorite"?
I'm afraid i do not see a particularly old keris in your second example, but perhaps we need to see more images. Can you show us an image that shows this entire blade?
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Old 6th January 2018, 11:35 PM   #8
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The iron deposits at Luwu are laterite ores.

In the 1980's my understanding is that there was a small commercial smelting operation going on at Luwu. I was told this by Panembahan Harjonegoro (alm.) who gave me a piece of this commercially refined nickel.

The current situation in Luwu can be understood by following these links:-

http://www.oxis.org/theses/misol-2103.pdf

https://www.reuters.com/article/ind...N0R42WI20140904

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-idUSKBN19P1Q5
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Old 7th January 2018, 01:03 PM   #9
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Hello La Pagaru,
Like many kris collectors I deeply appreciate the Bugis krisses for their strong "character", but I have difficulties to identify the pamor pattern of the Bugis blades although I have a copy of the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" to which you apparently contributed?
For instance how would you appraise the pamor pattern of the 2 Bugis blades attached? According to the reference book the pamor pattern of the first blade is Tebba Bunga (equivalent to Lar Gangsir in Java).
Regards
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Old 6th March 2018, 01:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Pagaru
various types of rare bugis keris variations



here is a large and probably old Bugis blade (14") from my collection after restoration. I guess it is Pamor Blarak Sineret. I cannot identify the small structure, looks like a face in profile. Btw, the blade is extraordinary sharp. All I can say is that the blade looks natural. On a fast view one might think, it is a snake. Even the pamor looks more like a feather or like a fossile than steel.
After a lot of work, the dress is just amazing, very dark with a reddish shine.
The overall picture with the hilt orientated in wrong direction is from the seller.

Roland
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:16 AM   #11
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Hello Roland,

This is an unusual and genuinely old Bugis blade that deserves a dedicated thread for analysis IMHO. A bunch of more pics would be good, too...

The dapur will be a tough call, I guess. The Buginese name for the main pamor along the blade eludes me at the moment - Andi will probably be quicker to supply that. There seems to be a second pamor motif at the base of the blade, too.

BTW, did you apparently sharpened/polished the edges quite a bit, didn't you?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
This is an unusual and genuinely old Bugis blade that deserves a dedicated thread for analysis IMHO. A bunch of more pics would be good, too...


Hi Roland,
agree with Kai. And I hope La Pagaru will see your keris and like to comment!

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 12th March 2018, 07:38 PM   #13
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Default Keris roland

Dear all

greetings, I am very struck to see the beauty of keris owned roland, and I hope one day I can bring it back to Indonesia and return it to the bugis land. Bugis call it pamornya kurissi, and our hollow part we call it teddo or piercings ,, we have the ancient book we call lontara bessi, our own bugis heirloom guide and I once gave a few pages translet to kai,

Best regrads
Lp
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Old 12th March 2018, 07:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Hello La Pagaru,
Like many kris collectors I deeply appreciate the Bugis krisses for their strong "character", but I have difficulties to identify the pamor pattern of the Bugis blades although I have a copy of the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" to which you apparently contributed?
For instance how would you appraise the pamor pattern of the 2 Bugis blades attached? According to the reference book the pamor pattern of the first blade is Tebba Bunga (equivalent to Lar Gangsir in Java).
Regards


greetings, the kris you show has a pamor which here we call it la kurissi daung kaluku (coconut leaves) interspersed with the pamor of Java people call it adeg while in bugis call it daung ase (rice leaf), while the second keris we call pamornya is wunga ase (rice flower) , kris kris you are very beautiful, I am sometimes stunned to remember the keris of friends outside the country is a very rare bugis keris, I hope there will be a bugis keris exhibition especially in europe, especially dutch

Best regrads
Lp
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Old 12th March 2018, 07:55 PM   #15
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[QUOTE=Sajen]Hi Roland,
agree with Kai. And I hope La Pagaru will see your keris and like to comment!

Regards,
Detlef[/QUOTE

Hello sajen

I hope sajen as an ordinary Indonesian facilitate the holding of a bugis keris exhibition in europe, I really hope it

Best regrads
Lp
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Hi LP. Yes, i believe that many, if not most of us are aware of pamor Luwu and it's source from Sulawesi. It was a highly valued source of iron for a good period of time and does indeed seem to have been used in the forging of old Javanese keris. However, this is a material, not a forged and finished keris. Iron from Luwu was well known to have a relatively high nickel content but my understanding was that it was entirely terrestrial. Can you point to any references that maintain such ore also contained "lots of meteorite"?
I'm afraid i do not see a particularly old keris in your second example, but perhaps we need to see more images. Can you show us an image that shows this entire blade?


Dear david

that is bugis david, here still sometimes we get heirlooms from the direct owners that they can from the heritage of their ancestors, they sometimes do not like if part of the shell fall out or dull so jadang they sharpen and sharpen it, though the blade is very well maintained because here we have own way different from jawa in taking care of kris, using warangan, we here only use lime to care for our heirloom and just perfume from incense smoke,

Best regrads
LP
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Pagaru
Dear all

greetings, I am very struck to see the beauty of keris owned roland, and I hope one day I can bring it back to Indonesia and return it to the bugis land. Bugis call it pamornya kurissi, and our hollow part we call it teddo or piercings ,, we have the ancient book we call lontara bessi, our own bugis heirloom guide and I once gave a few pages translet to kai,

Best regrads
Lp


Hello La Pagaru,

thank you for your words. And if I give this Keris away some day, it would be my greatest wish, to give it back to Indonesia!
I added two pictures for you, one with the hilt and waranka. The second one shows the Keris in my living room. You can see, this truly is a special place. I see and treat this Keris with great respect.


Best wishes,
Roland
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:12 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Hello La Pagaru,

thank you for your words. And if I give this Keris away some day, it would be my greatest wish, to give it back to Indonesia!
I added two pictures for you, one with the hilt and waranka. The second one shows the Keris in my living room. You can see, this truly is a special place. I see and treat this Keris with great respect

Best wishes,
Roland


Dear roland

thank you I say to you and friends here very appreciate the bugis keris that became part of our identity as a bugis, I really hope to see firsthand the collection of kris bugis friends who are here,

Best wishes
LP
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:18 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Pagaru
Dear david

that is bugis david, here still sometimes we get heirlooms from the direct owners that they can from the heritage of their ancestors, they sometimes do not like if part of the shell fall out or dull so jadang they sharpen and sharpen it, though the blade is very well maintained because here we have own way different from jawa in taking care of kris, using warangan, we here only use lime to care for our heirloom and just perfume from incense smoke,

Best regrads
LP

Thanks for finally responding to my post LP, but you did not really address most of my questions, including clarification about your remark that pamor Luwa contains a "lot of meteorite" and my request that you show a complete image of the last blade you posted. I am aware of the differences in maintenance practices between Jawa and Bugis cultures, but there is more about this last blade you posted than its good condition that makes be suspect it is a contemporary blade.

Last edited by David : 14th March 2018 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 15th March 2018, 01:45 AM   #20
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Hi La Pagaru,

I would have posted this question earlier, but at present I am away from home and moving around, so net access + time has been a bit restricted.

I refer to this statement of yours:-

"--- a little explanation about the variant of the existing bugis keris, which we must know, the bugis forging system is slightly different from the Javanese kris, and the difficulty level is much harder than the Javanese kris according to the recognition of some masters in Java and Madura---"

can you please explain for us precisely what it is that makes the Bugis forge process much more difficult than the forge process in Jawa and Madura.

I am very familiar with Javanese forge processes, both archaic and modern, and I am capable of understanding technical explanations of forge work, and of the carving work that follows the production of the forging.

Thank you for your consideration.
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Old 16th March 2018, 10:28 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Hi La Pagaru,

I would have posted this question earlier, but at present I am away from home and moving around, so net access + time has been a bit restricted.

I refer to this statement of yours:-

"--- a little explanation about the variant of the existing bugis keris, which we must know, the bugis forging system is slightly different from the Javanese kris, and the difficulty level is much harder than the Javanese kris according to the recognition of some masters in Java and Madura---"

can you please explain for us precisely what it is that makes the Bugis forge process much more difficult than the forge process in Jawa and Madura.

I am very familiar with Javanese forge processes, both archaic and modern, and I am capable of understanding technical explanations of forge work, and of the carving work that follows the production of the forging.

Thank you for your consideration.


Dear mr iG maisy

of course, we call it hanging steel, I can not explain it in more detail, our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java, you would not believe me if I say that Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us, in our history recorded in our ancient records, that the king majapahit willing to marry his son with king luwu only for pamor and pamor techniques that are owned luwu or sulawesi
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Old 16th March 2018, 02:41 PM   #22
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Thank you for your response La Pagaru.

So, you do not know anything at all about the forging process that your smiths use except that some unidentified people have declared that it is much more difficult than the methods used in Jawa and other places?

Is this so?

When you are able to answer my question I will be very interested in just what these extreme difficulties faced by your smiths are.

I do understand that my name might be quite difficult for some non-native speakers of English to write, however, I would truly appreciate your courtesy in trying your best to copy the form of my name that I use in this forum:-

A. G. Maisey

If this is too difficult to remember, may I suggest that you copy and paste?
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Old 16th March 2018, 04:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Pagaru
of course, we call it hanging steel, I can not explain it in more detail, our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java, you would not believe me if I say that Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us, in our history recorded in our ancient records, that the king majapahit willing to marry his son with king luwu only for pamor and pamor techniques that are owned luwu or sulawesi

I would love to see such claims presented as substantiated facts when possible Andi. I would not be surprised if a Mojopahit king may have seen fit to create a marriage bond in order to obtain a direct line to the raw materials that mines in Luwu could provide. As i stated before, we are mostly all aware here of pamor Luwu and that it was prized in Jawa many years ago. But this is about resources and materials, not forging techniques. The Bugis did not teach that empus of Jawa how to forge. They were merely a source for some of the raw materials that skilled empus in Jawa then turned into fine keris. If you are going to make controversial statements like "our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java" or "Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us" you had better have something more than merely empty statements to back that up. Just saying something is so over and over again does not make it so.
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Old 16th March 2018, 05:24 PM   #24
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Default Dear all

My apologies

I want to ask a little question here, is there among the masters in Java who use the technique of attaching steel to the pamor blade, which I mean not by clamping steel in the middle of prestige. but actually sticking the steel on the pamor blade that has been so, madura and jawa master have tried several times to imitate doing it, but they do it with the correct technique because I'm sure they do not know it, they put it in a way to weld it, but in bugis technique paste the steel with mengetehui steel hot spots that can adhere strongly on the blades, sorry friends and friends some friends in Java who have seen it first know it including ganjawulung pakbo you may know, and you should know that the iron in the by oxis has oblique sketches that are much older than those found in java, in the era of majapahit they not only import raw materials, but also bring their masters, I apologize for any mention of the name, and the matter of my english language still wearing google translete, and I did not mean to do that
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Old 17th March 2018, 01:27 AM   #25
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Thank you for your apology La Pagaru. If you are involving any online translation facility in your posts, I understand completely that any insult was completely unintentional.

In respect of your description of the Bugis forge technique, I am sorry, but I do not understand what you mean. Perhaps you could repeat your description in Bahasa Indonesia?

If you do not want to post in BI, you may care to send me a private message?

If you know somebody who understands forge work in detail, perhaps you could ask him to write the description of the technique?
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Old 17th March 2018, 03:08 AM   #26
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Andi might be hesitant to make a rely in Bahasa Indonesian since we have had discussion about posting only in English in the past, but if you, Alan, are willing to present a complete translation once he has made such a post that will work for me, I would also like a better understanding of what he is trying to communicate because thus far it makes no sense to me either. Thanks!
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Old 17th March 2018, 06:21 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Andi might be hesitant to make a rely in Bahasa Indonesian since we have had discussion about posting only in English in the past, but if you, Alan, are willing to present a complete translation once he has made such a post that will work for me, I would also like a better understanding of what he is trying to communicate because thus far it makes no sense to me either. Thanks!


Dear All

can i post in indonesia? while I've done that. and I was scolded for not doing that anymore
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:32 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Pagaru
Dear All

can i post in indonesia? while I've done that. and I was scolded for not doing that anymore

Andi, i'm sorry that you are having difficulty understanding, but that is exactly what i just told you to do, as long as Alan is willing to give a full translation for your post.
I would not like this to be a regular occurrence, but in this one instance i believe we could all benefit from a clearer understanding of what you are trying to communicate here. Alan (A.G. Maisey) is an experienced keris smith who has studied with well know Jawa empus. He should be able to sort out and explain what you write in terms we can all understand.
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Old 17th March 2018, 12:06 PM   #29
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Dear All

well, then I will get in touch with alan, so we can learn together

Thanks
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Old 17th March 2018, 01:56 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Dear All

well, then I will get in touch with alan, so we can learn together

Thanks

Andi, you have made some claims right here on this site that i would love to have you clear up in THIS space. We ALL would like to learn. That is the ultimate goal of this website after all. Taking this conversation into private space with Alan denies the rest of us of valuable lessons, does it not. I cannot keep you from conversing privately with Alan, of course, but it would be nice if you can help us understand what you trying to say right here on this forum. Again, if you would like to post your response to Alan here in Bahasa Indonesian so that he can translate it that would be allowable in this instance.
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