steel and iron weaponry of the american natives.........

ausjulius · 10th September 2006, 05:57 PM

ok , this one has realy been bugging me for some time..

along time ago while flipping through a book on native americans i came across a chapter on native metal work....
anyway one section caught my eye.. it was about iron ,and particulary steel weaponry and armor of a group of indians along the west coast of canada,

anyway from the pictures they showed the weaponry was rather sophisticated,, short dagger like . swords, and daggers and long knives, aswell as some armor and helmets,,,
the swords had a blade like the eairly roman daggers with a wedge shape , and were with many fullers,, the pommels of the swords had a spike proturding about 5 cm or so,, , the helmets had some sort of visor,,
it even showed sketched of the techniques used by the indians when fighting,...

is said the mijority of these bades were made form hardened steel of an unknown origin , as the blades were encountered when the english traders arrived,, there was a presumption they may have receved the ability from russian traders or others coming from the russian far east......???

anyway they were no simple knives shown, some had very intercate fullers in the blades , and the handles were very decorated....
i recall in the text it stated the natives developed in the 19th centuary a strange cult.. someting by the name of potash.. or something quite like the spelling..
which involved the destroying of ones possessions ,around the trading of some copper plates, which were viewed , by the local to have great value,...

anyway,, ive realy not been able to find anything on this...... nothing atall,
did i imagine it all?? can any of you people enlighten me on this topic???

ausjulius · 10th September 2006, 07:29 PM

just tryed invain again , the best i could find was a book:
Native North American Armor, Shields, and Fortifications,

no metion of metal weaponry,, .......
this is driving me nuts, i remember the book even had a good selection of fotos.. and stated that many exsamples were preserved in canadian museams today... along with severla of the copper plated traded by the natives.........????

Jeff D · 10th September 2006, 09:01 PM

Hi Ausjulius,

Try searching under "Tlingit", you should be able to find some information. Also there is some information in Swords and Hilt Weapons by Barnes and Noble. Chapter 16 deals with pre-conquest America.
Hope this gets you started.

Jeff

Andrew · 11th September 2006, 02:19 AM

I am unaware of any Native American steel or iron weapons predating the arrival of Europeans (16th century). By that time, the majority of Native American technology was stone-age, with the noteable exception of Tlingit copper-working in the Pacific Northwest.

A nice book is Colin F. Taylor's, Native American Weapons, Salamander Books, Ltd., United Kingdom (2001) ISBN 0-8061-3346-5.

ausjulius · 11th September 2006, 05:22 AM

hi "Tlingit" might be it...... anyway i remember the swords were quitly complicated... at the base of the blade where the fullers began the formed a face or pattern , looking quite alot like the pacific islanders tattoos,,, looked like it was forged into the blade....... andway i recall that the writer specualted the origins of the native metal working were russian , or were brought from some parts of siberia or russias far east colonies... which makes sence as the natives in the east all had the ability to work steel,, and were many times froced to work for the russians in the americas

ausjulius · 11th September 2006, 07:04 AM

http://www.alaskanativeartists.com/t...body_armor.htm

seems somebody is making reproductions of theTlingit body armor,.....

Potlatch was the term i remember now....... but none of the Tlingit look as the knives i saw pictures....
if i recall correctly the daggers were more as a kindjal,, and had a secound blade on the pommel, as on some african daggers and swords..
they also had multi fullered blades........

anyone seen anything like this????????? .....

mross · 11th September 2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I am unaware of any Native American steel or iron weapons predating the arrival of Europeans (16th century). By that time, the majority of Native American technology was stone-age, with the noteable exception of Tlingit copper-working in the Pacific Northwest.

A nice book is Colin F. Taylor's, Native American Weapons, Salamander Books, Ltd., United Kingdom (2001) ISBN 0-8061-3346-5.

I agree with Andrew. Most of what people think of Native American weapons, in particuliar the tomahawk where in fact trade items. Ditto for their knives. Most auctions that deal with Native American artifacts never mention steel weapons. A case inpoint that was in a thread here recently was a knife and sheath from ebay, the knife was not even mentioned. What was for sale was the beadwork decorated sheath. My main intrests are in ancient metallurgy, so it would be nice if the US had a history of it, but so far I have not found any.

Battara · 11th September 2006, 06:25 PM

Many steel bladed NW Coast knives were made of the traded Russian steel or even made of work out files. Again, as mentioned earlier, these were of the 19th century period. You can also look at older Sotheby's and Butterfield's auctions for these examples.

Tim Simmons · 11th September 2006, 07:23 PM

Copper weapons were at one time in use in pre Colombian North America. In forms unlike Central and South Americas. Okay it is not iron or steel, but I think it is odd that this metallurgy and often exquisite metalwork is so over looked. I have mentioned this book before "Miskwabik, Metal of Ritual, Metallurgy in Precontact Eastern North America" Amelia M. Trevelyan, The University press Of Kentucky. A little academic but not too challenging for the general reader, though I shall not try and quote from it. There is mention of tools and weapons, axes and adzes being large and heavy. I will also avoid the debate as to where this metallurgy originates from. Personally I see no reason why it is not home grown. As metal work was well established I also cannot see why this practice would not easily adopt the new material iron. Here are some of the interesting pics from the book

David · 11th September 2006, 07:33 PM

Here is another Tlingit dagger, this one made of copper. I am afraid i know less about the origins or dating of this one. It seems to many that you can find many Tlingit blades that are trade blades, but i believe the two examples i have posted were actually forged by the Tlingit.

Tim Simmons · 11th September 2006, 08:31 PM

This interesting axe is in the Museum Of America, Madrid well worth a visit. Bronze from Peru, with what looks like silver, tin or lead inlay. Bronze implies considerable metallurgy rather than working in copper as bronze is an alloy. So smelting was not an unknown activity. I like the way it mimics a stone axe, I would imagine this was an exceedingly special object, as it is today.

Tim Simmons · 11th September 2006, 08:55 PM

This is also from the Americas museum in Madrid. I think this is most interesting as it has the same method of attachment to a halft as the axe I post earlier from Wisconsin except this one is bronze. It is 11cm long and reminds me of axes from South Africa. If one is to work on that well trodden path of like forms means it came from somewhere else. Then Zulu sailors went the long way round, or round the cape of good hope and then cape horn and settled in the Andes

. I prefer to think that some objects are universal and the design comes to a mature form that does not alter where ever one comes from.

David · 11th September 2006, 11:21 PM

BTW, here's a link to a description of the potlatch. It doesn't involve the destuction of ones possessions, but the giving away of them. Hard to say when the tradition began, but it was banned by both the Canadian and U.S. governments in the late 19th century. That law held in Canada until 1951.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch

Jeff D · 12th September 2006, 05:37 AM

Apparently the earliest travellers to the northern west coast found both copper and iron in use. Copper most likely was mined and Iron and steel was probably salvaged from ship wrecks and drifting debris. (Coe, Swords and Hilt Weapons Pg.218). I have accumulated a number of photo's over the years, unfortunately I can't remember all their origins. 1) copper blade, 2) Iron blade 3) Russian bayonet, 4) Sheffield trade blade, 5) double blade.

Jeff

Flavio · 12th September 2006, 08:52 AM

The last one, double blade, is simply beautiful!!!!

ausjulius · 13th September 2006, 07:28 AM

realy very attractive knives,
the blade shapes and handle decoration had a very natural look , i find these far mor eattractive than many other ethnic weaponry,, they have somehow a natural , but brutal look

very nice daggers,

its interesting that they developed their own style different form the blades they obtained,
would you thhink they had been making them for along time , otherwise theyed be much mor einfluenced by the trade blades,

it is also interesting that these seem made fistly for fighting not for hunting or general use,

10th September 2006, 05:57 PM	#1
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	steel and iron weaponry of the american natives......... ok , this one has realy been bugging me for some time.. along time ago while flipping through a book on native americans i came across a chapter on native metal work.... anyway one section caught my eye.. it was about iron ,and particulary steel weaponry and armor of a group of indians along the west coast of canada, anyway from the pictures they showed the weaponry was rather sophisticated,, short dagger like . swords, and daggers and long knives, aswell as some armor and helmets,,, the swords had a blade like the eairly roman daggers with a wedge shape , and were with many fullers,, the pommels of the swords had a spike proturding about 5 cm or so,, , the helmets had some sort of visor,, it even showed sketched of the techniques used by the indians when fighting,... is said the mijority of these bades were made form hardened steel of an unknown origin , as the blades were encountered when the english traders arrived,, there was a presumption they may have receved the ability from russian traders or others coming from the russian far east......??? anyway they were no simple knives shown, some had very intercate fullers in the blades , and the handles were very decorated.... i recall in the text it stated the natives developed in the 19th centuary a strange cult.. someting by the name of potash.. or something quite like the spelling.. which involved the destroying of ones possessions ,around the trading of some copper plates, which were viewed , by the local to have great value,... anyway,, ive realy not been able to find anything on this...... nothing atall, did i imagine it all?? can any of you people enlighten me on this topic???

11th September 2006, 07:23 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Copper weapons were at one time in use in pre Colombian North America. In forms unlike Central and South Americas. Okay it is not iron or steel, but I think it is odd that this metallurgy and often exquisite metalwork is so over looked. I have mentioned this book before "Miskwabik, Metal of Ritual, Metallurgy in Precontact Eastern North America" Amelia M. Trevelyan, The University press Of Kentucky. A little academic but not too challenging for the general reader, though I shall not try and quote from it. There is mention of tools and weapons, axes and adzes being large and heavy. I will also avoid the debate as to where this metallurgy originates from. Personally I see no reason why it is not home grown. As metal work was well established I also cannot see why this practice would not easily adopt the new material iron. Here are some of the interesting pics from the book Attached Images

11th September 2006, 07:33 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	Here is another Tlingit dagger, this one made of copper. I am afraid i know less about the origins or dating of this one. It seems to many that you can find many Tlingit blades that are trade blades, but i believe the two examples i have posted were actually forged by the Tlingit. Attached Images

11th September 2006, 08:31 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	This interesting axe is in the Museum Of America, Madrid well worth a visit. Bronze from Peru, with what looks like silver, tin or lead inlay. Bronze implies considerable metallurgy rather than working in copper as bronze is an alloy. So smelting was not an unknown activity. I like the way it mimics a stone axe, I would imagine this was an exceedingly special object, as it is today. Attached Images

11th September 2006, 08:55 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	This is also from the Americas museum in Madrid. I think this is most interesting as it has the same method of attachment to a halft as the axe I post earlier from Wisconsin except this one is bronze. It is 11cm long and reminds me of axes from South Africa. If one is to work on that well trodden path of like forms means it came from somewhere else. Then Zulu sailors went the long way round, or round the cape of good hope and then cape horn and settled in the Andes . I prefer to think that some objects are universal and the design comes to a mature form that does not alter where ever one comes from. Attached Images

10th September 2006, 07:29 PM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	just tryed invain again , the best i could find was a book: Native North American Armor, Shields, and Fortifications, no metion of metal weaponry,, ....... this is driving me nuts, i remember the book even had a good selection of fotos.. and stated that many exsamples were preserved in canadian museams today... along with severla of the copper plated traded by the natives.........????

10th September 2006, 09:01 PM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Ausjulius, Try searching under "Tlingit", you should be able to find some information. Also there is some information in Swords and Hilt Weapons by Barnes and Noble. Chapter 16 deals with pre-conquest America. Hope this gets you started. Jeff

11th September 2006, 02:19 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I am unaware of any Native American steel or iron weapons predating the arrival of Europeans (16th century). By that time, the majority of Native American technology was stone-age, with the noteable exception of Tlingit copper-working in the Pacific Northwest. A nice book is Colin F. Taylor's, Native American Weapons, Salamander Books, Ltd., United Kingdom (2001) ISBN 0-8061-3346-5.

11th September 2006, 05:22 AM	#5
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	hi "Tlingit" might be it...... anyway i remember the swords were quitly complicated... at the base of the blade where the fullers began the formed a face or pattern , looking quite alot like the pacific islanders tattoos,,, looked like it was forged into the blade....... andway i recall that the writer specualted the origins of the native metal working were russian , or were brought from some parts of siberia or russias far east colonies... which makes sence as the natives in the east all had the ability to work steel,, and were many times froced to work for the russians in the americas

11th September 2006, 07:04 AM	#6
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	http://www.alaskanativeartists.com/t...body_armor.htm seems somebody is making reproductions of theTlingit body armor,..... Potlatch was the term i remember now....... but none of the Tlingit look as the knives i saw pictures.... if i recall correctly the daggers were more as a kindjal,, and had a secound blade on the pommel, as on some african daggers and swords.. they also had multi fullered blades........ anyone seen anything like this????????? .....

11th September 2006, 06:25 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Many steel bladed NW Coast knives were made of the traded Russian steel or even made of work out files. Again, as mentioned earlier, these were of the 19th century period. You can also look at older Sotheby's and Butterfield's auctions for these examples.

11th September 2006, 11:21 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	BTW, here's a link to a description of the potlatch. It doesn't involve the destuction of ones possessions, but the giving away of them. Hard to say when the tradition began, but it was banned by both the Canadian and U.S. governments in the late 19th century. That law held in Canada until 1951. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch

12th September 2006, 05:37 AM	#14
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Apparently the earliest travellers to the northern west coast found both copper and iron in use. Copper most likely was mined and Iron and steel was probably salvaged from ship wrecks and drifting debris. (Coe, Swords and Hilt Weapons Pg.218). I have accumulated a number of photo's over the years, unfortunately I can't remember all their origins. 1) copper blade, 2) Iron blade 3) Russian bayonet, 4) Sheffield trade blade, 5) double blade. Jeff Attached Images

12th September 2006, 08:52 AM	#15
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	The last one, double blade, is simply beautiful!!!!

13th September 2006, 07:28 AM	#16
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	realy very attractive knives, the blade shapes and handle decoration had a very natural look , i find these far mor eattractive than many other ethnic weaponry,, they have somehow a natural , but brutal look very nice daggers, its interesting that they developed their own style different form the blades they obtained, would you thhink they had been making them for along time , otherwise theyed be much mor einfluenced by the trade blades, it is also interesting that these seem made fistly for fighting not for hunting or general use,