Dha Dha Dha

Federico · 18th March 2005, 07:46 PM

Ok just one dha, but just had that song in my head. Up for comment is one dha. I am too lazy to separate the pics (well lazy and inept), so ignore the other sword. Anyways, this is a hefty piece, dont let the comparisson with the other sword fool you its OAL is 29" with a hefty 1/4" (maybe more) spine. When I was first shown pics, I didnt think it was that old, but now that its arrived its definitely a user with some history behind it. Tried to get a pic of the blade decor, but my camera is el cheapo, so if you use your imagination you can see the little s engrave marks near the spine right after the fuller. Comments appreciated. But wild guess Burmese? Hot cold freezing cold?

Rick · 18th March 2005, 07:56 PM

It should be Kachin , N. Burma .

Federico · 18th March 2005, 08:03 PM

dha dha dha kachin.

Thanks for the reply Rick, any guess on age?

Rick · 18th March 2005, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

dha dha dha kachin.

Thanks for the reply Rick, any guess on age?

Moi ?

No idea .

Conogre · 18th March 2005, 08:15 PM

That end treatment is quite impressive...there's one similar in the dha treatise, but next to the nimcha it brings it more into perspective than when photographed alone and makes it look much more like a true weapon.
By the way, IGNORE the other piece?
Sheesh...nice nimcha too! **grin**
Mike

Federico · 18th March 2005, 09:01 PM

With a Jedi wave of the hand, "you do not see the nimcha"

I gotta admit, while individual pics are great for individual analysis for a single piece, sometimes its hard for me to get perspective of size. Was tempted to throw a kampilan in the pic for further perspective, but figured it would be too much clutter.

Naga Basuki · 18th March 2005, 09:32 PM

If your're doing Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, shoudn't it be -- dha, dha, dha, dhaaaaaaaa?

Good intro for a nice dha.

Federico · 18th March 2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naga Basuki

If your're doing Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, shoudn't it be -- dha, dha, dha, dhaaaaaaaa?

Good intro for a nice dha.

Now theres another song that I got stuck in my head now.

Unfortunately the song I was thinking isnt as high cultured as Beethoven, but rather 80s synth pop from Germany.

Mark · 19th March 2005, 12:10 AM

That is a nice working dha. I would have said definitely Kachin a year ago, but in light of new information, it might be Thai. Recent intelligence from Dan says that the more curved ones are Thai, and the straighter ones the Burmese. The concave tip is apparently used by both groups. So we are sort of back to square one in terms of identifying origins. It certainly is in the Greaves-Winston "Kachin" category."

As for age, I won't venture a guess based on the photos. No more recent than WW2 era, though, I would say.

Federico · 19th March 2005, 12:19 AM

Thanks for the help Mark. Any tips on dating? This dha was purchased from a collection of blades that was mainly turn of the century, so I had assumed it may be of similar age. So would you think WWII era then?

Ian · 19th March 2005, 04:57 AM

I agree with Mark. The style is definitely Kachin in influence. but just where it comes from is open to question. The decorations on the blade resemble a couple of my 19th C. darb from Thailand (different tips).

This one could date anywhere from about 1850 to 1940. I think it is probably late 19th C. Nice find.

Andrew · 19th March 2005, 05:21 AM

Nice sword, Federico. It reminds me strongly of one owned by RhysMichael. His example has a pattern welded blade. I wonder if your's would benefit from a light etch.

The typology Ian and I started is in desparate need of an updating. I think some of the basic elements remain true, but using it to definitively place a particular sword's origin is optimistic. Mark's site will, I think, prove to be a powerful source for this research, as well-provenanced examples turn up for our consideration.

More data!

Federico · 19th March 2005, 07:58 AM

Ian, thanks for the help. I was wondering if the rest of the pieces that were purchased from ths collection could be used as a sideways way of dating. The Nimcha in the other photo was purchased from this collection, as well as a kris, kampilan, and a couple of bolos. All the Philippine stuff is turn of the century. Though of course the collection is from a WWII vet who was in the Pacific, so maybe he found a whole bunch of old, along with some new. Though all the pieces display similar signs of age/wear, though that may come from being in a single collection for so long.

Andrew, I gotta admit you tempt me with hope of watering, but I tend not to etch non-Philippine weaponry. Just so little knowledge of non-Philippine stuff, dunno what would be appropriate, so Ive been playing it safe and leaving my non-PI stuff alone, conservation but no restoration. Anyways, any concensus amongst the dha crowd about the ethics of etching dha?

Antonio Cejunior · 19th March 2005, 09:06 AM

Hi Federico,

Actually what caught my attention more than the beautiful dha was this other sword (bayonet type?) that shows this guard so similar to the Portuguese 16th. century crab guard swords.

I find it most interesting, specially if you disregard the end of the guard.
Spanish were using same type I am lead to believe.

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 01:12 PM

That's a sayf/nimcha, probably from Mooroco. There's a thread on it at the moment, under the name nimcha.

Andrew · 20th March 2005, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

Andrew, I gotta admit you tempt me with hope of watering, but I tend not to etch non-Philippine weaponry. Just so little knowledge of non-Philippine stuff, dunno what would be appropriate, so Ive been playing it safe and leaving my non-PI stuff alone, conservation but no restoration. Anyways, any concensus amongst the dha crowd about the ethics of etching dha?

Fred, I think dha benefit from polishing more than etching alone. I've only seen two dha with what I consider true mechanical damascus (both with a random pattern). One is the sword I mentioned above, the other is one RSword sold to me last year, much to my delight!

The benefit of polishing is that, even if not pattern welded, most well made dha blades will demonstrate differential hardening, some with well developed equivalents of hamon and even nie, as Philip Tom just pointed out to me tonight.

Antonio Cejunior · 20th March 2005, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

That's a sayf/nimcha, probably from Mooroco. There's a thread on it at the moment, under the name nimcha.

Thanks Tom.

Federico · 21st March 2005, 05:45 AM

Antonio, given the history between Spain and Morocco, I would not be surprised if there is some connection between the hilts, but unfortunately I know too little about Nimcha or Spanish swords to really offer any insight. Anyone else know if there is indeed a connection, beyond the coincidental?

Andrew, now you are really tempting me to etch/polish the antique dha in my collection. Though, I think Ill put it off for a while till I catch up with the repairs/restoration of everything else in the collection. Though when I have time Ill post pics (though that may be a number of years)

wilked aka Khun Deng · 25th March 2005, 12:46 PM

Again sorry I'm coming in so late. Lots of excuses - none very interesting. I'd say definately Burmese (Kachin). While the blade does share the same single narrow fuller running close to the spine that I've seen on darb from central Thailand, the blade is too thick. I thought it may have a broken off and reshaped central Thai blade but the thickness seems to taper to the point too uniformly. Additionally the handle is definately not of those I noted prior and though my eyes are going (which is an understatement) the spine seems to transition from flat to peaked in the photo - definately a northern Thai burmese trait.

Again sorry I've been absent - didn't get to go to Timonium (@#$%^#) - and can't possibly keep up with my current 14/7 schedule, but I'll try when I can.

Miss you guys!

18th March 2005, 07:46 PM	#1
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Dha Dha Dha Ok just one dha, but just had that song in my head. Up for comment is one dha. I am too lazy to separate the pics (well lazy and inept), so ignore the other sword. Anyways, this is a hefty piece, dont let the comparisson with the other sword fool you its OAL is 29" with a hefty 1/4" (maybe more) spine. When I was first shown pics, I didnt think it was that old, but now that its arrived its definitely a user with some history behind it. Tried to get a pic of the blade decor, but my camera is el cheapo, so if you use your imagination you can see the little s engrave marks near the spine right after the fuller. Comments appreciated. But wild guess Burmese? Hot cold freezing cold? Attached Images

18th March 2005, 07:56 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Going By The Index It should be Kachin , N. Burma .

18th March 2005, 09:32 PM	#7
Naga Basuki Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Big old machine shop/foundry/warehouse in Atlanta GA USA Posts: 51	dha, dha, dha? If your're doing Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, shoudn't it be -- dha, dha, dha, dhaaaaaaaa? Good intro for a nice dha.

19th March 2005, 09:06 AM	#14
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	A question Hi Federico, Actually what caught my attention more than the beautiful dha was this other sword (bayonet type?) that shows this guard so similar to the Portuguese 16th. century crab guard swords. I find it most interesting, specially if you disregard the end of the guard. Spanish were using same type I am lead to believe. Attached Images

18th March 2005, 08:03 PM	#3
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	dha dha dha kachin. Thanks for the reply Rick, any guess on age?

18th March 2005, 08:15 PM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	That end treatment is quite impressive...there's one similar in the dha treatise, but next to the nimcha it brings it more into perspective than when photographed alone and makes it look much more like a true weapon. By the way, IGNORE the other piece? Sheesh...nice nimcha too! grin Mike

18th March 2005, 09:01 PM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	With a Jedi wave of the hand, "you do not see the nimcha" I gotta admit, while individual pics are great for individual analysis for a single piece, sometimes its hard for me to get perspective of size. Was tempted to throw a kampilan in the pic for further perspective, but figured it would be too much clutter.

19th March 2005, 12:10 AM	#9
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	That is a nice working dha. I would have said definitely Kachin a year ago, but in light of new information, it might be Thai. Recent intelligence from Dan says that the more curved ones are Thai, and the straighter ones the Burmese. The concave tip is apparently used by both groups. So we are sort of back to square one in terms of identifying origins. It certainly is in the Greaves-Winston "Kachin" category." As for age, I won't venture a guess based on the photos. No more recent than WW2 era, though, I would say.

19th March 2005, 12:19 AM	#10
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Thanks for the help Mark. Any tips on dating? This dha was purchased from a collection of blades that was mainly turn of the century, so I had assumed it may be of similar age. So would you think WWII era then?

19th March 2005, 04:57 AM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,034	I agree with Mark. The style is definitely Kachin in influence. but just where it comes from is open to question. The decorations on the blade resemble a couple of my 19th C. darb from Thailand (different tips). This one could date anywhere from about 1850 to 1940. I think it is probably late 19th C. Nice find.

19th March 2005, 05:21 AM	#12
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Nice sword, Federico. It reminds me strongly of one owned by RhysMichael. His example has a pattern welded blade. I wonder if your's would benefit from a light etch. The typology Ian and I started is in desparate need of an updating. I think some of the basic elements remain true, but using it to definitively place a particular sword's origin is optimistic. Mark's site will, I think, prove to be a powerful source for this research, as well-provenanced examples turn up for our consideration. More data!

19th March 2005, 07:58 AM	#13
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Ian, thanks for the help. I was wondering if the rest of the pieces that were purchased from ths collection could be used as a sideways way of dating. The Nimcha in the other photo was purchased from this collection, as well as a kris, kampilan, and a couple of bolos. All the Philippine stuff is turn of the century. Though of course the collection is from a WWII vet who was in the Pacific, so maybe he found a whole bunch of old, along with some new. Though all the pieces display similar signs of age/wear, though that may come from being in a single collection for so long. Andrew, I gotta admit you tempt me with hope of watering, but I tend not to etch non-Philippine weaponry. Just so little knowledge of non-Philippine stuff, dunno what would be appropriate, so Ive been playing it safe and leaving my non-PI stuff alone, conservation but no restoration. Anyways, any concensus amongst the dha crowd about the ethics of etching dha?

19th March 2005, 01:12 PM	#15
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	That's a sayf/nimcha, probably from Mooroco. There's a thread on it at the moment, under the name nimcha.

21st March 2005, 05:45 AM	#18
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Antonio, given the history between Spain and Morocco, I would not be surprised if there is some connection between the hilts, but unfortunately I know too little about Nimcha or Spanish swords to really offer any insight. Anyone else know if there is indeed a connection, beyond the coincidental? Andrew, now you are really tempting me to etch/polish the antique dha in my collection. Though, I think Ill put it off for a while till I catch up with the repairs/restoration of everything else in the collection. Though when I have time Ill post pics (though that may be a number of years)

25th March 2005, 12:46 PM	#19
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Again sorry I'm coming in so late. Lots of excuses - none very interesting. I'd say definately Burmese (Kachin). While the blade does share the same single narrow fuller running close to the spine that I've seen on darb from central Thailand, the blade is too thick. I thought it may have a broken off and reshaped central Thai blade but the thickness seems to taper to the point too uniformly. Additionally the handle is definately not of those I noted prior and though my eyes are going (which is an understatement) the spine seems to transition from flat to peaked in the photo - definately a northern Thai burmese trait. Again sorry I've been absent - didn't get to go to Timonium (@#$%^#) - and can't possibly keep up with my current 14/7 schedule, but I'll try when I can. Miss you guys!