Swords a la Portuguese ... Part two

Gonzalo G · 3rd August 2017, 04:02 AM

I'm not a consoisseur on this kind of weapons, but I will express some ideas, meanwhile others, better informed, gives his or her opinions. The work seems very rough, as if it was made in a colony overseas. Like some of the so-called "colonial rapiers", made in America instead Europe. The fullers on the ricasso are unusual, as the pommel. Flatted pommels with perforations and a small central bar can be found on Portuguese swords of this type, and this pommel in certain way remainds them, but only in a certain way. The endings of the guards does not present the typical circular flat form of the Portuguese boarding swords from the 15th Century. They are more stylized, but this also was not unusual on this swords, as seen in the example above in the post from Marc. The perforations on the ring guards seem to correspond to stems (pitons), a sort of defenses which now are lacking, probably because of a bad hot-welding work. I don´t have specifics on the forging capabilities of the natives of Angola in the 17th Century (if the date on the blade is correct), but this sword can be a copy of the Portuguese boarding sword made by a local blacksmith, Portuguese or native, but a bungler.

RobertGuy · 3rd August 2017, 07:28 AM

Is the red colouration in the photographs an artifact or is there really red active rust on this blade? This is something I would not expect to see on a blade of this age.

fernando · 3rd August 2017, 01:13 PM

Wouldn't this be an example made by African locals inspired in navigator swords, which prevailed through centuries to be used for ceremonies or prestige, the so called MBELE A LULENDO (sword of power) ?. In this specific specimen, the date 1697 could have also been borrowed from early original examples. This one could be as late as from the 19th. century. The variation in model details may as well be 'authors imagination'. Although these swords may be acquired in (Nothern) Angola, it is obvious to expect that their design found its way there descending from neighbour Southwest Congo, where its influence was provided by navigators is registered.
But of course, anyone with knowledge may certainly correct me ... partly or totally

.

.

Gonzalo G · 3rd August 2017, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Wouldn't this be an example made by African locals inspired in navigator swords, which prevailed through centuries to be used for ceremonies or prestige, the so called MBELE A LULENDO (sword of power) ?. In this specific specimen, the date 1697 could have also been borrowed from early original examples. This one could be as late as from the 19th. century. The variation in model details may as well be 'authors imagination'. Although these swords may be acquired in (Nothern) Angola, it is obvious to expect that their design found its way there descending from neighbour Southwest Congo, where its influence provided by navigators is registered.

That fits perfectly well, Fernando!! The Bakongo- Bantu used these swords as you said. This ethnic group in fact extends from north Luanda in Angola to the Congo.
Regards

fernando · 15th August 2017, 06:41 PM

After all, a determined part of Northern Angola was indeed part of the Congo kingdom, having this later been split after controversial events.
It is known that, a number of these swords in their primitive form was found in a Kindoki (ritual) cemetery, in Lower Congo Mbanza Nsundi.
Swords were considered power symbols, both in representing status symbols and also metaphisical means, to be used during several rites, including executions; hence the name Mbele a Lulendo.
The 16th century European swords were gradually replaced by indigenous production. The Mbele a Lulendo in its more expressive form would be the one with one guard arm facing up and the other facing down, an attitude to represent an anthromorphic figure, so called niombo.
The arms (quillons) of the sword posted here were not made to such position, although it configures a serious approach to a Mbele a Lulendo. A doubt remains on whether the all four arms, inspired by Portuguese swords, have their ends incomplete because time wasted their discs and pitons, which some times occurred, or the native smith only cared to forge a 'suggestion' to those appendixes.
In a closer look, the date 1697 seems to be an actual one, this blade being genuine European ... German ? It might have been shortened, with its 58 cms. length. Its width is rather impressive: 35 mm. The short ricasso fullers also look good. There are two copper 'ferrule like' washers holding the tang to the guard, which could (could) be from the hilting period, which i make it around 1880, a period in which these native swords were latest put up.

Again i submit all the above to the approval of knowledged members.

.

Reventlov · 24th August 2017, 03:44 PM

I found one that we haven't seen yet in a book about Nuno Goncalves' St. Vincent altarpiece. Not much information about it is provided: it's in the Museo Militar in Lisbon, described as 15th-16th century.

fernando · 24th August 2017, 04:45 PM

Thank you for your post, Reventlov.
As you can see, thess are the types of Portuguese swords that 'inspired' African natives to produce their own version, like the Mbelle a Lulendo.
In reality, the allusion you might have read about this sword example is that it is the type, or one of the types, depicted in the six panels of São Vicente, a large oil on wood painted by Nuno Gonçalves around 1470-1480.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...os40_kopie.jpg
(you may enlarge this image)

The sword is indeed in the Military Museum and the panels are in the Museum of Antique Art.

PS

Although a more precise style as depicted in the panels is more like this one, a typical Portuguese sword of the third quarter XV cebtury.

.

RRSAND · 3rd August 2017, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I'm not a consoisseur on this kind of weapons, but I will express some ideas, meanwhile others, better informed, gives his or her opinions. The work seems very rough, as if it was made in a colony overseas. Like some of the so-called "colonial rapiers", made in America instead Europe. The fullers on the ricasso are unusual, as the pommel. Flatted pommels with perforations and a small central bar can be found on Portuguese swords of this type, and this pommel in certain way remainds them, but only in a certain way. The endings of the guards does not present the typical circular flat form of the Portuguese boarding swords from the 15th Century. They are more stylized, but this also was not unusual on this swords, as seen in the example above in the post from Marc. The perforations on the ring guards seem to correspond to stems (pitons), a sort of defenses which now are lacking, probably because of a bad hot-welding work. I don´t have specifics on the forging capabilities of the natives of Angola in the 17th Century (if the date on the blade is correct), but this sword can be a copy of the Portuguese boarding sword made by a local blacksmith, Portuguese or native, but a bungler.

Well, thank you!
And, let's say that everything you wrote exactly matches what i think about this... I didn't write anything because i am not a specialist (not even a "real" collector, sadly), and i didn't want to probably make a fool of myself. But i did some research (not easy to find information on this) and these are my thoughts exactly, i have nothing to add to your comment!
The fullers on the ricasso actually puzzle me, they are not even metallic , but made of some brittle material i couldn't identify.
The blade looks like it was repaired/altered at some point. Almost like it was "reforged", there are some "seams", starting from the middle of the blade to the poin...

RobertGuy, well, the oxidation is not as active as it looks to be, the photos were taken with flash, and that really brightens the orange, but yes, this is quite corroded. Truth is it was found in the open, and worse, on a beach, exposed to salt water for who knows how long...

15th August 2017, 06:41 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	After all, a determined part of Northern Angola was indeed part of the Congo kingdom, having this later been split after controversial events. It is known that, a number of these swords in their primitive form was found in a Kindoki (ritual) cemetery, in Lower Congo Mbanza Nsundi. Swords were considered power symbols, both in representing status symbols and also metaphisical means, to be used during several rites, including executions; hence the name Mbele a Lulendo. The 16th century European swords were gradually replaced by indigenous production. The Mbele a Lulendo in its more expressive form would be the one with one guard arm facing up and the other facing down, an attitude to represent an anthromorphic figure, so called niombo. The arms (quillons) of the sword posted here were not made to such position, although it configures a serious approach to a Mbele a Lulendo. A doubt remains on whether the all four arms, inspired by Portuguese swords, have their ends incomplete because time wasted their discs and pitons, which some times occurred, or the native smith only cared to forge a 'suggestion' to those appendixes. In a closer look, the date 1697 seems to be an actual one, this blade being genuine European ... German ? It might have been shortened, with its 58 cms. length. Its width is rather impressive: 35 mm. The short ricasso fullers also look good. There are two copper 'ferrule like' washers holding the tang to the guard, which could (could) be from the hilting period, which i make it around 1880, a period in which these native swords were latest put up. Again i submit all the above to the approval of knowledged members. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 18th August 2017 at 03:52 PM.

24th August 2017, 03:44 PM	#6
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	I found one that we haven't seen yet in a book about Nuno Goncalves' St. Vincent altarpiece. Not much information about it is provided: it's in the Museo Militar in Lisbon, described as 15th-16th century. Attached Images

24th August 2017, 04:45 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Thank you for your post, Reventlov. As you can see, thess are the types of Portuguese swords that 'inspired' African natives to produce their own version, like the Mbelle a Lulendo. In reality, the allusion you might have read about this sword example is that it is the type, or one of the types, depicted in the six panels of São Vicente, a large oil on wood painted by Nuno Gonçalves around 1470-1480. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...os40_kopie.jpg (you may enlarge this image) The sword is indeed in the Military Museum and the panels are in the Museum of Antique Art. PS Although a more precise style as depicted in the panels is more like this one, a typical Portuguese sword of the third quarter XV cebtury. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 24th August 2017 at 05:37 PM.

3rd August 2017, 04:02 AM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I'm not a consoisseur on this kind of weapons, but I will express some ideas, meanwhile others, better informed, gives his or her opinions. The work seems very rough, as if it was made in a colony overseas. Like some of the so-called "colonial rapiers", made in America instead Europe. The fullers on the ricasso are unusual, as the pommel. Flatted pommels with perforations and a small central bar can be found on Portuguese swords of this type, and this pommel in certain way remainds them, but only in a certain way. The endings of the guards does not present the typical circular flat form of the Portuguese boarding swords from the 15th Century. They are more stylized, but this also was not unusual on this swords, as seen in the example above in the post from Marc. The perforations on the ring guards seem to correspond to stems (pitons), a sort of defenses which now are lacking, probably because of a bad hot-welding work. I don´t have specifics on the forging capabilities of the natives of Angola in the 17th Century (if the date on the blade is correct), but this sword can be a copy of the Portuguese boarding sword made by a local blacksmith, Portuguese or native, but a bungler.

3rd August 2017, 07:28 AM	#2
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Is the red colouration in the photographs an artifact or is there really red active rust on this blade? This is something I would not expect to see on a blade of this age.

3rd August 2017, 01:13 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Wouldn't this be an example made by African locals inspired in navigator swords, which prevailed through centuries to be used for ceremonies or prestige, the so called MBELE A LULENDO (sword of power) ?. In this specific specimen, the date 1697 could have also been borrowed from early original examples. This one could be as late as from the 19th. century. The variation in model details may as well be 'authors imagination'. Although these swords may be acquired in (Nothern) Angola, it is obvious to expect that their design found its way there descending from neighbour Southwest Congo, where its influence was provided by navigators is registered. But of course, anyone with knowledge may certainly correct me ... partly or totally . .