British percussion carbine

Marcus den toom · 16th October 2013, 10:15 AM

I recently bought this converted percussion carbine at a French auction. It is covered with english proofmarks, as well as the makers name Blair inside the lock.

The name Blair is mostlikly that of David Blair form Birmingham, the rightside of the buttsttock has a crown with a arrow pointing down to the date 1805.
The lock has Tower, a crown, GR and a arrow on it. The inside has the name Blair (the R is very faint), HS and 22 with a crown like M. The lock has a safety slide (still working).
The leftside, near the breech there are the number 45, S and G with a crown on top.
The leftside of the buttstock has the number 1211 on it and 4 small holes forming a rectangular shape where there used to be a plaque of some kind.
Th breech has been cutdown and replaced with a screw on percussion mount, but there are some faint markings of the original flintlock barrel (crossed swords with a crown above and a arrow ??).
The barrel is only 40,5 cm (16inch) long, the ramrod seems original and untempered with.

My question is, what kind of carbine is this? What did it look like before it was converted etc. What was its use (couch gun, naval etc?)

Multumesc · 16th October 2013, 11:45 AM

CONGRATULATIONS, beautiful carbine.

fernando · 16th October 2013, 01:46 PM

Nice piece.
Would that be a musket with a barrel shortened to a carbine length ?
Perhaps a private conversion for non military use. A few things don't seem to square: only one ranmrod pipe, a misplaced belt sling ...
Could you check if the ramrod swivel looks like having been added at a later date?
Mind you, these are all guesses; other members here know a lot more about this.

Cerjak · 16th October 2013, 01:54 PM

Hi Markus

Nice gun! It makes me remember a gun I have: A Pattern 1856 Enfield Cavalry carbine
Of course it is different and later model but it should be an evolution from your
Model

Best regards

Jean-Luc

Cerjak · 16th October 2013, 02:12 PM

mores pics

Marcus den toom · 16th October 2013, 06:40 PM

Thank you all for the interest in this "carbine"

@ Fernando, the swifel does look to be original to the gun, but the breech has been added later. Because there are still marks near the breech, i strongly suspect that the curent lenght does not differ to much form the original lenght :/

The front sight (brass slide in) however looks like it has been added later on

adrian · 17th October 2013, 09:38 AM

The first carbine depicted is some sort of cavalry carbine - how long is its barrel? It may have been messed with. Its conversion is not to a British Govt pattern, & looks European.

The second carbine depicted is unfortunately a total knock off - what some would term a "Kyber Pass" gun.

Marcus den toom · 17th October 2013, 10:39 AM

Adrian, the barrel is 16inch (40,5cm) long. Fernando asked about the swifel at the front, but it does look original... though the front sight does not. The breech area has only been replaced by a percussion section and still has some of its original marks (crossed swords and crown etc).

So if the barrel is shortened, it mus have been at the front. The barrel itself has been cleaned in a most disturbing way (the grooves of the file are still vissible)

thinreadline · 17th October 2013, 04:29 PM

It looks to me like a flintlock musket which in the mid 19th C has been converted to a percussion carbine in the style of the 1844 Yeomanry Carbine. Chisnall illustrates a similar example in his book British Non Ordnance Military Carbines 1750 - 1900 .
What calibre is yours ?

Marcus den toom · 17th October 2013, 05:15 PM

The barrel is 16mm or 0.62 inch

thinreadline · 17th October 2013, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

The barrel is 16mm or 0.62 inch

Thats is about right ( c 18 bore ) for many commercial carbines of the 1840s/ 50s produced for sale to Indian Irregular Cavalry units .

Marcus den toom · 17th October 2013, 06:04 PM

Marcus, Read the rules! We do not discuss evaluations on this forum.

Robert

thinreadline · 17th October 2013, 07:23 PM

They are not usually as valuable as the strightforward Brtish Army issue equivalents even though they may be rarer , they are not as desirable. I have no idea how much your carbine is worth , sorry.

fernando · 17th October 2013, 07:29 PM

I don't think we can discuss appraisals in here

Marcus den toom · 17th October 2013, 07:48 PM

oops sorry Fernando

Still, this carbine has more estetic value to me than hard cash so a nice adition indeed

:

Fernando K · 17th October 2013, 08:25 PM

Hello everyone:

1 - This is a model 1796 carbine for Heavy Dragoons, transport rodless side, and two rings for transport, one in the head and the other on the forearm and barrel .65 caliber 46 "
2 - Obviously, the key (lock) has all the original records.
3 - The remains of inscriptions on the gun (barrel) are GR surmounted and the broad arrow (denoting the property of the Crown), and crossed and crowned scepters (Test Bank Tower)
4 - Conversion to percussion has still made by a gunsmith particular. It denotes the replacement cylinder head bolt (breech plug), and its replacement by a screw with fireplace (nipple). Also, the hammer is very elaborate.
5 - The stick is fixed to retrofit. The carriage is made of bronze or brass, and runs through a square cube, instead of a round ring.

Sorry for the translator ...

Fernando K

thinreadline · 18th October 2013, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello everyone:

1 - This is a model 1796 carbine for Heavy Dragoons, transport rodless side, and two rings for transport, one in the head and the other on the forearm and barrel .65 caliber 46 "
2 - Obviously, the key (lock) has all the original records.
3 - The remains of inscriptions on the gun (barrel) are GR surmounted and the broad arrow (denoting the property of the Crown), and crossed and crowned scepters (Test Bank Tower)
4 - Conversion to percussion has still made by a gunsmith particular. It denotes the replacement cylinder head bolt (breech plug), and its replacement by a screw with fireplace (nipple). Also, the hammer is very elaborate.
5 - The stick is fixed to retrofit. The carriage is made of bronze or brass, and runs through a square cube, instead of a round ring.

Sorry for the translator ...

Fernando K

Fernando , excuse my query , but which gun are you referring to here ?

Fernando K · 18th October 2013, 12:15 PM

Hello:

I must correct myself: maybe try Paget carbine, 1812, which incorporated a slide lock, mounted in half (half cock)

Fernando K

thinreadline · 18th October 2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello:

I must correct myself: maybe try Paget carbine, 1812, which incorporated a slide lock, mounted in half (half cock)

Fernando K

OK Fernando , that makes much more sense !

Richard G · 18th October 2013, 02:58 PM

Yes, I agree with Fernando, it is a converted Paget carbine. The date on the stock probably reads 1808 rather than 1805 (which is too early). A saddle bar was originally attached by the two screws holding the lock from the rear, and the front swivel has been added.
However it would be nice to see a close-up of the whole lock, because at the moment I can't quite see how the original frizzen spring was attached.
Any paget carbine is of interest to a British military arms enthusiast. This seems unusual in not having any unit markings; it is a nice thing.
Regards
Richard
PS. Sorry, forgot about the "slider". I can see now.

Marcus den toom · 18th October 2013, 03:13 PM

Amazing Fernando K, spot on!!!
The barrel lenght hasen't changed either (originally a 16inch barrel).

16th October 2013, 10:15 AM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	British percussion carbine I recently bought this converted percussion carbine at a French auction. It is covered with english proofmarks, as well as the makers name Blair inside the lock. The name Blair is mostlikly that of David Blair form Birmingham, the rightside of the buttsttock has a crown with a arrow pointing down to the date 1805. The lock has Tower, a crown, GR and a arrow on it. The inside has the name Blair (the R is very faint), HS and 22 with a crown like M. The lock has a safety slide (still working). The leftside, near the breech there are the number 45, S and G with a crown on top. The leftside of the buttstock has the number 1211 on it and 4 small holes forming a rectangular shape where there used to be a plaque of some kind. Th breech has been cutdown and replaced with a screw on percussion mount, but there are some faint markings of the original flintlock barrel (crossed swords with a crown above and a arrow ??). The barrel is only 40,5 cm (16inch) long, the ramrod seems original and untempered with. My question is, what kind of carbine is this? What did it look like before it was converted etc. What was its use (couch gun, naval etc?)

16th October 2013, 11:45 AM	#2
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	British percussion carbine CONGRATULATIONS, beautiful carbine.

16th October 2013, 01:54 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,064	Hi Markus Nice gun! It makes me remember a gun I have: A Pattern 1856 Enfield Cavalry carbine Of course it is different and later model but it should be an evolution from your Model Best regards Jean-Luc Attached Images

16th October 2013, 02:12 PM	#5
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,064	more pics mores pics Attached Images

17th October 2013, 04:29 PM	#9
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	It looks to me like a flintlock musket which in the mid 19th C has been converted to a percussion carbine in the style of the 1844 Yeomanry Carbine. Chisnall illustrates a similar example in his book British Non Ordnance Military Carbines 1750 - 1900 . What calibre is yours ? Attached Images

16th October 2013, 01:46 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Nice piece. Would that be a musket with a barrel shortened to a carbine length ? Perhaps a private conversion for non military use. A few things don't seem to square: only one ranmrod pipe, a misplaced belt sling ... Could you check if the ramrod swivel looks like having been added at a later date? Mind you, these are all guesses; other members here know a lot more about this.

16th October 2013, 06:40 PM	#6
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Thank you all for the interest in this "carbine" @ Fernando, the swifel does look to be original to the gun, but the breech has been added later. Because there are still marks near the breech, i strongly suspect that the curent lenght does not differ to much form the original lenght :/ The front sight (brass slide in) however looks like it has been added later on

17th October 2013, 09:38 AM	#7
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 117	The first carbine depicted is some sort of cavalry carbine - how long is its barrel? It may have been messed with. Its conversion is not to a British Govt pattern, & looks European. The second carbine depicted is unfortunately a total knock off - what some would term a "Kyber Pass" gun.

17th October 2013, 10:39 AM	#8
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Adrian, the barrel is 16inch (40,5cm) long. Fernando asked about the swifel at the front, but it does look original... though the front sight does not. The breech area has only been replaced by a percussion section and still has some of its original marks (crossed swords and crown etc). So if the barrel is shortened, it mus have been at the front. The barrel itself has been cleaned in a most disturbing way (the grooves of the file are still vissible)

17th October 2013, 05:15 PM	#10
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	The barrel is 16mm or 0.62 inch

17th October 2013, 06:04 PM	#12
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Marcus, Read the rules! We do not discuss evaluations on this forum. Robert Last edited by Robert; 17th October 2013 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Forum rule violation.

17th October 2013, 07:23 PM	#13
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	They are not usually as valuable as the strightforward Brtish Army issue equivalents even though they may be rarer , they are not as desirable. I have no idea how much your carbine is worth , sorry. Last edited by Robert; 17th October 2013 at 07:42 PM.

17th October 2013, 07:29 PM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	I don't think we can discuss appraisals in here Last edited by Robert; 17th October 2013 at 07:42 PM.

17th October 2013, 07:48 PM	#15
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	oops sorry Fernando Still, this carbine has more estetic value to me than hard cash so a nice adition indeed :

17th October 2013, 08:25 PM	#16
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hello everyone: 1 - This is a model 1796 carbine for Heavy Dragoons, transport rodless side, and two rings for transport, one in the head and the other on the forearm and barrel .65 caliber 46 " 2 - Obviously, the key (lock) has all the original records. 3 - The remains of inscriptions on the gun (barrel) are GR surmounted and the broad arrow (denoting the property of the Crown), and crossed and crowned scepters (Test Bank Tower) 4 - Conversion to percussion has still made by a gunsmith particular. It denotes the replacement cylinder head bolt (breech plug), and its replacement by a screw with fireplace (nipple). Also, the hammer is very elaborate. 5 - The stick is fixed to retrofit. The carriage is made of bronze or brass, and runs through a square cube, instead of a round ring. Sorry for the translator ... Fernando K

18th October 2013, 12:15 PM	#18
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hello: I must correct myself: maybe try Paget carbine, 1812, which incorporated a slide lock, mounted in half (half cock) Fernando K

18th October 2013, 02:58 PM	#20
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	Yes, I agree with Fernando, it is a converted Paget carbine. The date on the stock probably reads 1808 rather than 1805 (which is too early). A saddle bar was originally attached by the two screws holding the lock from the rear, and the front swivel has been added. However it would be nice to see a close-up of the whole lock, because at the moment I can't quite see how the original frizzen spring was attached. Any paget carbine is of interest to a British military arms enthusiast. This seems unusual in not having any unit markings; it is a nice thing. Regards Richard PS. Sorry, forgot about the "slider". I can see now. Last edited by Richard G; 18th October 2013 at 03:13 PM.

18th October 2013, 03:13 PM	#21
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Amazing Fernando K, spot on!!! The barrel lenght hasen't changed either (originally a 16inch barrel).