Berber Cavalry Saber ??

archer · 3rd June 2013, 11:46 PM

Appears to be an unmarked, or copy of a British 1796 cavalry saber, is it?
The 29 inch blade looks like a huge old fashioned straight razor. If it is as it appears a fairly scarce item with a sheath with an intacked toe. Sheath has a wood insert on one side only, seems odd. Horn?? layered grips have a break across the bottom of the grip. Any information will be helpful. Thanks, Steve

RhysMichael · 4th June 2013, 12:05 AM

Interesting sword that has been the subject of a great deal of talk here in the past. Most common attribution I have seen is Berber but I have seen others talk of them as Morrocan, Spanish colonial, Carribean, and Mexican or south American. Jim I am sure will be able to offer some insight when he sees this

kahnjar1 · 4th June 2013, 01:42 AM

Hi Steve,
Another interesting piece. My pick would be Algeria, based only on the hilt decoration. Many Khodmi knives from that area have similar decoration.
The blade could have originated almost anywhere. It could be an original European blade or a locally made copy.
Nice item IMHO.
Regards Stu

TVV · 6th June 2013, 12:11 AM

Nice sword archer.

We have indeed discussed these mysterious swords at great length in the past. To me their attribution is unclear, but I have two of them with Spanish mottos: one the standard "No me saques..." motto, the other one "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos", likely referring to a particular event in the history of what is now the Dominican Republic. I am yet to see an inscription on the blade of this type of sword that is NOT in Spanish.

Therefore, to me it appears that they must have been used somewhere within the Spanish Colonial Empire. Assuming a 19th century attribution to these swords, the Spanish Empire at the time was limited to the Caribbean, the Philippines and a few areas in North-Western Africa. Maybe add a significant portion of South America and all of Central America, if they date to the very early decades of the 19th century. Of all these options, I am leaning towards Central America and the Caribbean for two main reasons:
- Charles Buttin does not include these swords in his description of weapons from the Maghreb;
- the Dominican reference on the inscription on one of my swords.

A quick search should bring the old discussion threads up.

Regards,
Teodor

P.S. 29 inches seems a bit too short for a cavalry weapon. Mine are not very long either, and I doubt these were ever intended for mounted use. But in narrow confines (such as on a ship) or in a jungle setting they seem to be just about the right size for a sidearm.

ariel · 6th June 2013, 01:45 AM

Teodor,
I have a classical Moroccan Nimcha with the blade marked " Nueva Granada" ( presently, - Colombia/Venezuela).
Blades traveled, and surplus Spanish blades obviously found their way to the Spain-controlled N. Africa.

Rick · 6th June 2013, 03:06 AM

One thing these swords seem to share is a 'pinched tang' tapered to fit between the hilt slabs .
This would not seem to be the original configuration of these recycled blades .
The clipper-ship bow shaped point of many of these reconfigured swords seems quite un-Spanish also .

TVV · 6th June 2013, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Teodor,

Blades traveled, and surplus Spanish blades obviously found their way to the Spain-controlled N. Africa.

I completely agree with this, but while there is a variety of blades on nimchas: the Spanish one on yours, French blades, local blades, old Solingen backsword blades, etc., these allegedly Berber swords seem to be exclusively fitted with Spanish mottos, when inscriptions are present. It is a very different case from an odd trade blade or two.

I am afraid a conclusion will only be reached when we find a period photo of a warrior (or warriors) with this type of weapon. One is eventually bound to surface.

Regards,
Teodor

archer · 6th June 2013, 02:57 AM

Hi, Here I was thinking another addition to Moroccan family with a rather rare sword when the sheath is complete. Now as you both have pointed out out It's worse than the mixed origins of the various Koummya styles. I'll read it all thorough, but, I need to peek at the ending has the forum found a conclusion?
This one just came in and needs a lot of oil to remove tiny raised rust spots. The right hand fuller may have very faint makers mark and maybe and armors acceptance stamp. we'll see what oil can do. Thanks, Steve

3rd June 2013, 11:46 PM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Berber Cavalry Saber ?? Appears to be an unmarked, or copy of a British 1796 cavalry saber, is it? The 29 inch blade looks like a huge old fashioned straight razor. If it is as it appears a fairly scarce item with a sheath with an intacked toe. Sheath has a wood insert on one side only, seems odd. Horn?? layered grips have a break across the bottom of the grip. Any information will be helpful. Thanks, Steve Attached Images

4th June 2013, 01:42 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,730	Maybe Algeria??? Hi Steve, Another interesting piece. My pick would be Algeria, based only on the hilt decoration. Many Khodmi knives from that area have similar decoration. The blade could have originated almost anywhere. It could be an original European blade or a locally made copy. Nice item IMHO. Regards Stu

6th June 2013, 02:57 AM	#8
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	interesting links Hi, Here I was thinking another addition to Moroccan family with a rather rare sword when the sheath is complete. Now as you both have pointed out out It's worse than the mixed origins of the various Koummya styles. I'll read it all thorough, but, I need to peek at the ending has the forum found a conclusion? This one just came in and needs a lot of oil to remove tiny raised rust spots. The right hand fuller may have very faint makers mark and maybe and armors acceptance stamp. we'll see what oil can do. Thanks, Steve

4th June 2013, 12:05 AM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Interesting sword that has been the subject of a great deal of talk here in the past. Most common attribution I have seen is Berber but I have seen others talk of them as Morrocan, Spanish colonial, Carribean, and Mexican or south American. Jim I am sure will be able to offer some insight when he sees this

6th June 2013, 12:11 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,599	Nice sword archer. We have indeed discussed these mysterious swords at great length in the past. To me their attribution is unclear, but I have two of them with Spanish mottos: one the standard "No me saques..." motto, the other one "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos", likely referring to a particular event in the history of what is now the Dominican Republic. I am yet to see an inscription on the blade of this type of sword that is NOT in Spanish. Therefore, to me it appears that they must have been used somewhere within the Spanish Colonial Empire. Assuming a 19th century attribution to these swords, the Spanish Empire at the time was limited to the Caribbean, the Philippines and a few areas in North-Western Africa. Maybe add a significant portion of South America and all of Central America, if they date to the very early decades of the 19th century. Of all these options, I am leaning towards Central America and the Caribbean for two main reasons: - Charles Buttin does not include these swords in his description of weapons from the Maghreb; - the Dominican reference on the inscription on one of my swords. A quick search should bring the old discussion threads up. Regards, Teodor P.S. 29 inches seems a bit too short for a cavalry weapon. Mine are not very long either, and I doubt these were ever intended for mounted use. But in narrow confines (such as on a ship) or in a jungle setting they seem to be just about the right size for a sidearm.

6th June 2013, 01:45 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, I have a classical Moroccan Nimcha with the blade marked " Nueva Granada" ( presently, - Colombia/Venezuela). Blades traveled, and surplus Spanish blades obviously found their way to the Spain-controlled N. Africa.

6th June 2013, 03:06 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	One thing these swords seem to share is a 'pinched tang' tapered to fit between the hilt slabs . This would not seem to be the original configuration of these recycled blades . The clipper-ship bow shaped point of many of these reconfigured swords seems quite un-Spanish also .