Saifs

dakary · 8th January 2022, 08:28 PM

Hi everybody.

I'm new to the forum. I have, on occasion, posted on the my armoury forums. I have lurked here for a little while and I thought I should sign up since my interests are migrating a bit away from Medieval European arms to Islamic arms. I attribute this to having spent a bit of time living in the Gulf Region. While I was there, I did have a look around at various saif swords but my expertise was lacking (indeed, to the point where there was none to be had!). I also noticed that many of the saifs, while beautiful, were not functional but were extremely ornate decorative pieces, sometimes for use in sword dances at weddings and such.

I have looked on the forums and found some posts somewhat related to my inquiry but not directly answering either. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed.

I've come onto the forum, to reach out and see if there is somebody, or somebodies, who could give me a bit more information about acquiring a functional saif, and in particular, those typical to the gulf region. I'm not sure about a specific time period. My understanding is that the shamshir style saifs are basically ottoman and/or Persian shamshir blades that have been made Arabic through differences in decoration (for example, wire-wrap seems to be common near the top of the handle), as well as handle (and in particular, pommel) shape. I have no idea when that influence occurred and when Arabs, and in particular those around the gulf, started to incorporate this style of blade but it seems to be that it is later than medieval. I'm not necessarily looking for something over the top decorative. I have been made aware of Peserey Handicrafts out of Turkey which is sort of the type of thing I am looking for, but those are obviously Turkish (and/or Persian?) rather than Gulf Arabic.

Thank you very much.

mariusgmioc · 9th January 2022, 09:31 AM

Welcome to the forum!

The name game is never ending and the opinions are split. Some terms that we use are are generic, some are more specific, some are ethnographically correct, some aren't.

Now with regards to the terms "shamshir" and "saif" I can only tell you my take on it as other forum colleagues may have different opinions. But that's the charm of if as it would be boring if we all agree on everything.

So, in my opinion, shamshirs are characterized mainly by their long, narrow and strongly curved blade of flattened triangular (wedge) cross-section. They can be distinguished further by their hilt into
"Persian shamshirs" (first photo),
"Ottoman shamshirs" (second photo),
"Indian shamshirs" (third photo) and
"Syrian/Arab shamshirs" (fourth photo).

For others, the hilt would be the defining element in naming the sword, so the saber in the second photo would be called "kilij," the one in the third photo would be called "tulwar," and the one in the last photo would be called "saif."

Is this ethnographically correct?!
Not really as in India pretty much all sabers would be called "tulwar," in Turkey pretty much all sabers would be called "kilij" and in the Arab world pretty much all sabers would be called "saif."

However, for me as a collector strictly ethnographic criteria are too vague and imprecise, so for clarity and conciseness I prefer to use more specific ethnographically inspired terms.

mariusgmioc · 9th January 2022, 10:39 AM

Now, what would I call a "saif" would be a saber with a characteristic Arabic hilt and slightly broader, less curved (than a shamshir), usually imported blade like those in the photos.

You may notice the "saif" in the first photo has a very distinct hilt. These types of saifs are attributed mainly to Yemen, while those in the last two photos are attributed to Syria.

dakary · 9th January 2022, 07:18 PM

Thanks for that!

Yes, the terminology seems to be pretty muddy! I appreciate the clarification. By your terminology, I would say that what I am looking for is an Arabic (or Syrian) shamshir - or possibly a Persian one. I'm not sure how much variation there is within these, but I'd like it to be something that is appropriate in the Gulf region. I've seen plenty of Indian and Turkish (between these, I'd prefer Turkish), but very lacking in Syrian, Arabian, and Persian. I'm not even sure where to look. It is possible that I'll be back over there at some point (although it isn't up to me nor does it look probable), but even then, I wouldn't know where to look. The stuff around the souqs was stuff made in China or India (and sometimes locally modified/decorated) and stainless steel for use in sword dances. That's not what I'm after, of course. I'm also not looking for an antique. Something new (but the older the style, the better), functional, high quality but not ornate, and preferably by a local(ish) smith. I have no idea if there is such a thing - I'm being pretty specific.

Battara · 9th January 2022, 07:27 PM

Here is my saif. It was probably made in Hyderabad India and for the Yemeni market.

dakary · 9th January 2022, 08:07 PM

I do have to add that those Yemini hilts and pommels are really attractive to me too. I think Yemini arms are really nice. I like their jambiyas also. I tried to find one when I was in the Gulf but I just didn't have an eye that would allow me to pick out something worth getting and I wimped out. I probably should have just taken a plunge and gotten something.

8th January 2022, 08:28 PM	#1
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Saifs Hi everybody. I'm new to the forum. I have, on occasion, posted on the my armoury forums. I have lurked here for a little while and I thought I should sign up since my interests are migrating a bit away from Medieval European arms to Islamic arms. I attribute this to having spent a bit of time living in the Gulf Region. While I was there, I did have a look around at various saif swords but my expertise was lacking (indeed, to the point where there was none to be had!). I also noticed that many of the saifs, while beautiful, were not functional but were extremely ornate decorative pieces, sometimes for use in sword dances at weddings and such. I have looked on the forums and found some posts somewhat related to my inquiry but not directly answering either. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed. I've come onto the forum, to reach out and see if there is somebody, or somebodies, who could give me a bit more information about acquiring a functional saif, and in particular, those typical to the gulf region. I'm not sure about a specific time period. My understanding is that the shamshir style saifs are basically ottoman and/or Persian shamshir blades that have been made Arabic through differences in decoration (for example, wire-wrap seems to be common near the top of the handle), as well as handle (and in particular, pommel) shape. I have no idea when that influence occurred and when Arabs, and in particular those around the gulf, started to incorporate this style of blade but it seems to be that it is later than medieval. I'm not necessarily looking for something over the top decorative. I have been made aware of Peserey Handicrafts out of Turkey which is sort of the type of thing I am looking for, but those are obviously Turkish (and/or Persian?) rather than Gulf Arabic. Thank you very much.

9th January 2022, 09:31 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,875	Welcome to the forum! The name game is never ending and the opinions are split. Some terms that we use are are generic, some are more specific, some are ethnographically correct, some aren't. Now with regards to the terms "shamshir" and "saif" I can only tell you my take on it as other forum colleagues may have different opinions. But that's the charm of if as it would be boring if we all agree on everything. So, in my opinion, shamshirs are characterized mainly by their long, narrow and strongly curved blade of flattened triangular (wedge) cross-section. They can be distinguished further by their hilt into "Persian shamshirs" (first photo), "Ottoman shamshirs" (second photo), "Indian shamshirs" (third photo) and "Syrian/Arab shamshirs" (fourth photo). For others, the hilt would be the defining element in naming the sword, so the saber in the second photo would be called "kilij," the one in the third photo would be called "tulwar," and the one in the last photo would be called "saif." Is this ethnographically correct?! Not really as in India pretty much all sabers would be called "tulwar," in Turkey pretty much all sabers would be called "kilij" and in the Arab world pretty much all sabers would be called "saif." However, for me as a collector strictly ethnographic criteria are too vague and imprecise, so for clarity and conciseness I prefer to use more specific ethnographically inspired terms. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 9th January 2022 at 10:42 AM.

9th January 2022, 10:39 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,875	Now, what would I call a "saif" would be a saber with a characteristic Arabic hilt and slightly broader, less curved (than a shamshir), usually imported blade like those in the photos. You may notice the "saif" in the first photo has a very distinct hilt. These types of saifs are attributed mainly to Yemen, while those in the last two photos are attributed to Syria. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 10th January 2022 at 07:26 AM.

9th January 2022, 07:27 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Here is my saif. It was probably made in Hyderabad India and for the Yemeni market. Attached Images

9th January 2022, 07:18 PM	#4
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks for that! Yes, the terminology seems to be pretty muddy! I appreciate the clarification. By your terminology, I would say that what I am looking for is an Arabic (or Syrian) shamshir - or possibly a Persian one. I'm not sure how much variation there is within these, but I'd like it to be something that is appropriate in the Gulf region. I've seen plenty of Indian and Turkish (between these, I'd prefer Turkish), but very lacking in Syrian, Arabian, and Persian. I'm not even sure where to look. It is possible that I'll be back over there at some point (although it isn't up to me nor does it look probable), but even then, I wouldn't know where to look. The stuff around the souqs was stuff made in China or India (and sometimes locally modified/decorated) and stainless steel for use in sword dances. That's not what I'm after, of course. I'm also not looking for an antique. Something new (but the older the style, the better), functional, high quality but not ornate, and preferably by a local(ish) smith. I have no idea if there is such a thing - I'm being pretty specific.

9th January 2022, 08:07 PM	#6
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I do have to add that those Yemini hilts and pommels are really attractive to me too. I think Yemini arms are really nice. I like their jambiyas also. I tried to find one when I was in the Gulf but I just didn't have an eye that would allow me to pick out something worth getting and I wimped out. I probably should have just taken a plunge and gotten something.