16th century halberd; origin?? - Page 2

fernando · 4th July 2016, 06:18 PM

Hi Zauberflöte,
I took the liberty to enquire about the mark in your halberd to the Graz Museum in Styria and here is the answer i got from Daniela Assel, a scholar of that institution:

.
actually we do have a halberd in our collection which has the same mark. I am sorry but we cannot identify the halberd smith but most of our staff weapons were bought from Upper Austria in the second half of the 16th century.

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2016, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Looks like the star was in the menu of countless smiths ... with the maximum possible variations.

In trying to research these markings, while included in some degree in the corpus of notes and compendiums of markings, it seems those found on polearms are much more esoteric and not as easily resourced.

Here we have seen the variations of such markings found on polearms, and I was thinking that perhaps these were possibly arsenal, guild or other significant indicators They seem pretty consistently placed in location usually on the spike of halberds and somewhat same on other forms.

In researching some Italian polearms, I found that a number of them of the 16th century , both halberds and falcons (guisarme) were marked with distinctive scorpion marks (many with +B on the scorpion body).
It seems that these were from Brescia, Lombardy, Venice and others, so singular arsenal provenance seems out .
What I thought was interesting was that in European context these polearms were in cases referred to as a 'scorpion'.
So here was an instance of weapon 'description' aligned with a unique type marking on their blades, which does not seem to apply to armoury, maker or guild.

So I am wondering, if such a prospect might come into play with some instances of markings found on some polearms.
A long shot to be sure, but wondering if others had considered.

Reventlov · 5th July 2016, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Here we have seen the variations of such markings found on polearms, and I was thinking that perhaps these were possibly arsenal, guild or other significant indicators.

Hi Jim,
While searching the collection of the Swiss Museum, I found a couple halberds that might offer a hint along these lines. In a small number of cases two different marks appear, each individual mark appearing more commonly alone... One of the marks is a familiar star mark. The repeated marks each include a similarly shaped mark of a leaf or spade, though the mark is executed in two different ways... coincidence? One possibility could be that one mark is that of the smith, the other that of an arsenal...

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2016, 05:55 AM

Thanks very much Reventlov,
That is very helpful, and I agree that these pairings may well be the result of such combinations. While makers seem to have recorded their marks with guilds, ironically it does not seem that guilds, arsenals and armouries left record of their markings.

The general motif of piercings in deliberate configurations, motif etc are also interesting as to what prompted their use on these polearms.

Zauberflöte · 5th July 2016, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Zauberflöte,
I took the liberty to enquire about the mark in your halberd to the Graz Museum in Styria and here is the answer i got from Daniela Assel, a scholar of that institution:

.
actually we do have a halberd in our collection which has the same mark. I am sorry but we cannot identify the halberd smith but most of our staff weapons were bought from Upper Austria in the second half of the 16th century.

Excellent, many thanks for your pro-active enquiry!

fernando · 6th July 2016, 12:32 PM

Glad to help

.

fernando · 6th July 2016, 06:53 PM

Speaking of doubted marks and still hijacking Zauberflöte's thread, here is my huge bisarma (guisarme/ronca/roncone/bill) which mark (or smith) was never confirmed.
Suggestions were that it could belong to Peter Pögl, but with with strong uncertainty. Has anyone ever seen this one ... Reventlov ?

.

Reventlov · 7th July 2016, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Suggestions were that it could belong to Peter Pögl, but with with strong uncertainty. Has anyone ever seen this one ... Reventlov ?

Sorry Fernando, haven't seen this one before! I have not devoted much study to this particular type of weapon... looks like a fine specimen though.

fernando · 7th July 2016, 05:46 PM

Thank you Reventlov.
It is the mark ID that i am chasing ... and i realized the same smith could make these weapons a well as other polearms.
I am certain this is a good specimen, as discussed HERE:

5th July 2016, 05:55 AM	#34
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,740	Thanks very much Reventlov, That is very helpful, and I agree that these pairings may well be the result of such combinations. While makers seem to have recorded their marks with guilds, ironically it does not seem that guilds, arsenals and armouries left record of their markings. The general motif of piercings in deliberate configurations, motif etc are also interesting as to what prompted their use on these polearms. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th July 2016 at 12:30 AM.

6th July 2016, 06:53 PM	#37
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Speaking of doubted marks and still hijacking Zauberflöte's thread, here is my huge bisarma (guisarme/ronca/roncone/bill) which mark (or smith) was never confirmed. Suggestions were that it could belong to Peter Pögl, but with with strong uncertainty. Has anyone ever seen this one ... Reventlov ? . Attached Images

4th July 2016, 06:18 PM	#31
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Zauberflöte, I took the liberty to enquire about the mark in your halberd to the Graz Museum in Styria and here is the answer i got from Daniela Assel, a scholar of that institution: . actually we do have a halberd in our collection which has the same mark. I am sorry but we cannot identify the halberd smith but most of our staff weapons were bought from Upper Austria in the second half of the 16th century.

6th July 2016, 12:32 PM	#36
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Glad to help .

7th July 2016, 05:46 PM	#39
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you Reventlov. It is the mark ID that i am chasing ... and i realized the same smith could make these weapons a well as other polearms. I am certain this is a good specimen, as discussed HERE: