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Old 4th February 2019, 02:28 PM   #31
Jens Nordlunde
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Rand,
I see what you mean, and I think this could be the case.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:08 PM   #32
Battara
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I thought I would offer my example and to get some analysis please:
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:20 PM   #33
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rand
Hey Jens,

When you look at the wootz pattern of the blade, you see dark and light (black & silver) colors and lines. The black lines being similar to the cartography of a map showing the different levels of elevation. On the golden umbrella, you can also see darker lines that are mostly vertical. On the top right of the umbrella, there are some that are at and angle. Compare the dark lines of the blade to the dark lines of the umbrella. What is most obvious is the slanting top right lines that lines up perfectly on the gold and steel areas.

The camera collects data, that is light reflecting off the surface of the katars blade. My theory: In this example, there are slight variences in the wootz surface height from etching. And that when reflected off the gold surface, then give darker and lighter shades of gold, because of varying angled degrees of light bouncing back to the camera .

If this is true, it adds another dimension to wootz steel. This is where an opinion from a metallurgist that has study'd wootz would help.

"The human brain starts working the moment you are born and never stops until you stand up to speak in public."

George Jessel

rand



Great explanation Rand!

My metallurgy compehrension is about at 'Sesame street' level, so thank you for the excellent description of both the photographic and metallurgic factors.
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Old 7th February 2019, 11:37 PM   #34
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Battara,

You have a very beautiful sword. Would need a better quality image to be able to study it, but could determine if all the koftgari on blade was done with the same hand. Possibly a couple other thins too. These type things are best to study using a 10X microscope. Having said that, a great photo go's a long ways in giving clues of origen and quality.

Again, a beautiful sword.

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Old 8th February 2019, 03:10 AM   #35
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Default Tipu Sultan bed chamber sword w/ parasol

I wanted to present a bit different conundrum involving the parasol mark which was present on the large bed chamber sword - May 4,1799 as captured by British forces.
The sword was large, unusually so with a 36" blade and tulwar hilt. In this mount a straight blade is typically regarded as termed 'sukhela'.

On the blade was the gold inlaid parasol mark (as pictured) but unusual in the character of the parasol itself, as well as appearing atop the cross & orb so well known on German blades of earlier times. It would be tempting to suggest that the parasol was added to the cross and orb as a convenient adjustment.
However, the vertical line of the cross, extending from the horizontal line that bisects the orb.....is far too long to the parasol and there is no evidence of the original patibulum (cross bar) in the area it should have been.


It would appear that this mark was applied along with other inscriptions etc. at the time this blade was mounted, and suggests the blade is likely Indian.

But why would the parasol be made to include the cross and orb, which obviously was contrary to Mughal symbolism?

There are two cannon of Tipu Sultan's which carry the familiar East India Company symbol heart shaped with a '4' atop but have been described as 'defaced' with the Mysore seal superimposed over the EIC mark.
It would seem that the strangely paired markings were deliberately placed as if to proclaim the vanquishing of the British by Tipu.

Looking again at the strangely configured parasol OVER the cross and orb , could this have been another case of vanquishing power over perhaps the German allies of the British or the profound use of their blades......by placing the parasol OVER the religiously charged cross & orb?
This application much in the sense or convention of the 'defaced' over marking on the cannon?

I would think the French advisors who oversaw the foundries of Tipu would have been delighted to produce cannon with the kind of allegory that Tipu seemed to favor toward his enemies. The famed mechanical toy that has a tiger attacking a European/British victim is case in point.
Perhaps an industrious armourer to Tipu applied this parasol in this manner.


Added: Tipu's tiger, the automaton device which shows a tiger (presumably representing Tipu. the 'tiger of Mysore' attacking a European (British) soldier. The scene allegorically displays Tipu's loathing of EIC forces.
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Last edited by Jim McDougall : 8th February 2019 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 8th February 2019, 12:25 PM   #36
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Default Orb

Looks similar to the shape of his throne.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/460422761897861582/


Was looking for star charts too, symbol crux for the Southern cross is similar also.

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Old 8th February 2019, 04:49 PM   #37
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Rand, thank you so much for this input, and you bring interesting perspectives here. Star constellations often provide the basis for certain types of markings on blades, most familiar of course are the Chinese 'seven stars' which allude tp the Ursa Major , most auspicious in their cosmology.
I have seen similar constellation or cosmological markings on some Islamic blades as well, mostly connected dot type orientation.
However I don't think this would be the source for the marking here.


What is compelling though is your mention of the Tipu throne, and looking at images of it clearly shows the parasol notably above it. That in itself brings strong suggestion to the appearance of this elaborate throne, but even with this comparison begs the question.....why is the base (orb) of this device exactly in the configuration of the well known cross & orb of Europe?


I a still wondering if this instance of marking the blade was deliberately contrived to appeal to Tipu's notion of allegorically vanquishing his enemy, the British. While the cross & orb is of course a German mark, it was well known on blades from England, as well as being a key Christian symbol.
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Old 8th February 2019, 05:06 PM   #38
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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I think the thread is almost on target except my thought is it is just slightly off since it is ..The Parasol ..not an especially Hindu sign but deeply rooted in Buddhism as one of the 8 auspicious signs..see https://www.ancient-symbols.com/buddhist-symbols.html the Parasol not only gives protection from the elements of rain and sun but protects on a spiritual belief level (thus Talisman) from evil and disease. therefor like a Talisman does ;it steps across religious boundaries through tradition and tribal acceptance as do several western talisman signs and beliefs and so sits very comfortably with Hindu myths and legends.

On the Tulvar Hilt it occurred to me that the POMMEL bears resemblance to the parasol and this is posed as a general question...Is it? See also the sketch above with the man sitting with a Tulvar under a Parasol..for comparison.
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Old 10th February 2019, 09:56 PM   #39
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I have to say it is difficult to miss a single word from the explanation of parasols in http://www.religionfacts.com/parasol therefor in the name of education and research I have collected up much of the detail here~

Quote"The parasol or umbrella (Skt. chattra; Tib. gdugs) is a traditional Indian symbol of both protection and royalty. The ability to protect oneself against inclement weather has always, in all cultures, been a status symbol.

In Europe, until a few decades ago, a sunshade was a status symbol for society ladies. In Oriental thought, the fact that it protected the bearer from the scorching heat of the sun was transferred into the religious sphere as a "protection against the heat of defilements." Thus the coolness of its shade symbolizes protection from the heat of suffering, desire, and other spiritually harmful forces.

The dome of the umbrella is held aloft by a vertical handle (just like the mountain upholds the sky), which is identified with the 'axis mundi,' or the central axis upholding the world.

The umbrella is carried above an important dignitary or the image of a deity, to indicate that the person or symbol below the umbrella is in fact the center of the universe, and also its spiritual support. Umbrellas seem to be especially important in processional rites, being like mobile temples. Thus, depictions of the Buddha often display an elaborate and large umbrella above his head.

As it is held above the head it naturally symbolizes honor and respect. In Vajrayana Buddhism, this large umbrella (atapatra) was even deified into the thousand-armed, -footed goddess Sitapatra, whose name literally means 'the white umbrella.'

In Tibet, depending on their status, various dignitaries were entitled to different parasols, with religious heads being entitled to a silk one and secular rulers to a parasol with embroidered peacock feathers. Exalted personalities such as the Dalai Lama are entitled to both, and in processions, first a peacock parasol and then a silk one is carried after him.

The Tibetan version of the parasol was adopted from its royal Indian and Chinese prototypes, and fashioned from a wooden, spoked frame with a domed silk cover and hanging silk pendants making up an overhanging skirt.

The dome symbolizes wisdom, and the hanging skirt, compassion. Thus the composite form of the parasol signifies the union of these dual elements.

Octagonal and square parasols are also common, representing the Noble Eightfold Path and the four directional quarters respectively".Unquote
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:14 AM   #40
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Ibrahiim I like the subject of axis mundi that you brought up. This is an area of study in my 2nd masters. Not thought of applying this to the umbrella motif until now.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:18 PM   #41
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Looking to Mughal Art for Parasols see below..Shah Jahan in various artworks>>
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Old 13th February 2019, 10:14 PM   #42
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Emperor Babur ..16thC Parasol detail.
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Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 13th February 2019 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 8th March 2019, 07:03 PM   #43
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Mughal designs and patterns generally came with them from Persian influence. This is apparent in the different types of umbrellas as well as the magnificent Forts Mausoleums and Mosques constructed by the Mughal artisans and architects...In fact the Chhatri which normally means a type of umbrella also appears in stone built form usually on the corners of huge magnificent palaces and fortresses as small domes etc but called the same ..See https://selfstudyhistory.com/2015/0...-during-mughal/

The tendency is to call also the small hand held umbrella a Chhatri...In this case held over one persons head or attached to a throne...The Emperors and in a bigger group may as seen below be seated under the bigger sun shade sometimes called a Saiban (Sunshade) and have single small Parasols raised over them. This tradition is reflected into the marriage ceremony where the bride and groom sit with the Pandit(Holy Man) for their marriage vows.

Babur(Tiger); for a quick resume of his operations see https://www.britannica.com/biography/Babur for a rapid roller coaster of his incredible achievements as the founder of The Mughal Empire.
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Old 10th March 2019, 07:38 PM   #44
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I thought we had possibly seen the largest structures possible in cloth hand held and canopy style sunshades but this one is the biggest I have seen to date ! A giant parasol two poled item over a square smaller shade under.
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Old 23rd March 2019, 03:11 AM   #45
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Default Chhatri on Shah Jahan's sword @ Wallace Collection

Chhatri on Shah Jahan's sword @ Wallace Collection
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