The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:20 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 04:54 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Regarding the scimitar in the cloud image. I always wondered if it represented that the Eastern powers were seen as God's punishment, you know, not enough faith and all that...

More things to ponder.
Jeff

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:20 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 03:18 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde

Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Interesting to notice what Jim writes, and it is most likely true. In the start trade blades were no doubt of the same quality as the blades used by the soldier of the trading country, but along the way it is also likely that a lesser quality was exported, so in the end the locally made �trade� blade might have been of quite a higher quality than the ones imported.

The same happened to the Indian ingots in the early centuries, so in the end the Arabic merchants stationed controllers at the west coast of India, to check the ingots before they were exported.

A side remark � there were no doubt a lot of blades imported into India, which did not have any markings, but we will never know how big this import was.

Very good explained Jeff, and good instructive illustrations as well.

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:21 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 03:55 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent observations Jeff! and especially pleased to see that Scottish basket hilt blade, which is a beauty ! I remember that one! This further emphasizes that these Scottish blades were indeed German imports, as the 'Spanish Motto' blades have now been determined to have been produced in variation and number in Solingen. It seems that early Scottish blades bearing patriotic mottos had inscriptions that were noteably Germanic in spelling, such as 'for Schotland and no union'.

As you have noted the application of these astral markings as well as the motto seem to have been applied somewhat in disassociated manner as far as original or presumed symbolism, suggesting of course that such blades were made to appeal to certain markets or consumers without particular consideration or understanding of the markings. It would seem also that blades could have been decorated specifically at the request of the consumer. In such case, the coupling of markings indeed would have been found on varied blades intended commercially.

The suggestion that Solingen produced special order blades is also seen with the sword bearing arm out of the cloud that we are discussing. In one reference to this particular marking it appears along with a 'sacred heart' marking which is typically regarded as a Catholic associated symbol if I am clear, and in such context with presumed Protestant markings such as the arm in the cloud would again suggest production in a more commercial perspective such as the Solingen blades.
It would require a great deal of theological debate to discuss the possible symbolism of most of these allegorical markings, but the general application seems to support the talismanic concept.

It seems that early writers on arms such as DeCosson proposed that in many cases the application of what are perceived as names of makers may have been descriptive terms for types of swords, with of course Andrea Ferrara at the fore. Another familiar example is that of 'SAHAGUM'. While this of course is known as a place in Spain, and possibly a makers name, it occurs on blades in elusive variation, and often spelled differently. I have seen this term applied to allegedly Toledo produced blades and actually spelled differently on each side of the blade. Again,clearly Solingen production though the blade heralded 'EN TOLEDO' as well.

As you have well said.........lots more pondering!!!!!

All very best regards,
Jim

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:21 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 05:30 PM

Posted by;
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
This is a rough translation of the paragraphs concerning the so called magic numbers, referring to the sword i have mentioned before, contained in the book already quoted.
I hope this makes some sense and is usefull to the thread topic. If not, it's you who asked for it
I myself allways doubt the efectiveness of isoteric stuff ( is this how you call it? )

" It became easy to distinguish European examples from Colonials, as the quality of their fabrication and its artistic level were highly superior to those made in the Colonies. Not so easy, however,was to distinguish examples in the Colonies that were made by Portuguese smiths, engaged by the Overseas Arsenals, from simple copies manufactured in Native anvils.
Both versions had imported blades. The wide blades with the mark �Lobo de Passau ( a running wolf ), and with the magic numbers 1414 or 1441, are the oldest examples, which origin is attributed to Portuguese Colonial Arsenals and the realms of Dom Manuel ( 1495-1521 ) untill Dom Sebasti�o ( 1557-1578). It is worthy to mention that the numbers 1414 and 1441 were not the date of production ( under which very often they were classified ) but uniquely the application of a number considered �magic�. The study of numerology, a fashion of the period, attributed to figure �7�, as to its multiples and combinations, a Divine value. While the Arab cried Allah il Allah, the Christian would engrave the number 7 or, more often the 14 ( this being two times 7 ), or 1414 ( this being two times 7 plus another two times 7 ) or 1441 ( being 14 and the palidrome of another 14) on his blade, wishing to express this way his cry for Divine help in all four directions, as from the moment he unsheathed his sword. Number 1414 is also a reference to the Bible; Job, chapter 14, paragrapgh 14: Man dying, will he live again? Every days of my combat i would wait, untill my change arrived (in the Catholic version). Luther, much considered in Germany in the XVI century, has translated the Greek original, offering in simple language,the following interpretation to this Biblic quotation: When a man dyes, he will live again. So i will continue fighting until my moment comes."
All the best
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:22 PM

Old 7th November 2007, 11:35 AM

Posted by;
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Fernando, thank you for the translation, it is most interesting to hear how they marked their weapons, and the meaning of the marking. I have no doubt that the markings you see on European weapons and on weapons from other countries for a great part had a religious meaning, but it is very seldom you see the meaning explained.

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:22 PM

Old 7th November 2007, 10:11 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
I'd like to join Jens in thanking you for translating Mr. Daehnhardt's beautifully explained discussion on these often seen numbers that occur in variation on so many many blades. It has always amazed me that over the years so many swords that were clearly 17th and 18th century weapons, were described in catalogues as having blades dated 1441, 1414 etc. by writers who certainly should have known better.

The application of numbers associated with talismanic symbolism is of course well known from early times, as numerology has had quite ancient beginnings. It is interesting to note that from the 16th century, hunting swords were often inscribed with calendars of 'saints days' in sectioned circle separated with signs of the zodiac ("Hunting Weapons" H.L.Blackmore). Presumably such devices were employed to promote good hunting, and much the same concept was likely applied with numeric symbols on blades to offer protection and good fortune in dangerous circumstances.

In anthropology it is known that early man used crudely stylized symbolism in his artwork found in caves to promote good outcome in key events such as hunting. It seems amazing that this simplistic superstitious perception from mans darkest prehistoric age developed rudimentally into intricate occult systems still recognized in varying degree and form to this day. During the Dark Ages, though illiteracy and ignorance were prevalent, the crafts maintained these traditions and allegories, and they carried through the Renaissance despite the advent of knowledge and science.

I think one of the key elements in the esoterica behind these various markings and symbols found on weapons was alchemy. It was primarily this psuedo-science, heavily laced with theosophical allegory and arcane symbolism such as numerology and the Cabbala that led to the markings and motifs we are discussing, in my opinion.

In the bladesmiths craft, the secrets he employed in forging of the metal in his weapons were many, especially in the most important aspect, that of tempering the steel. All manner of bizarre concoctions were created in which the blade was quenched and presumably would imbue the steel with the virtues and properties that would be needed in a weapon of strength and protection. In the plethora of ingredients in such mixtures were many of the elements signified and included in allegorical symbolism, and some of these may be among marks or motifs on blades.

While these are simply thoughts I have had as I have continued researching this topic, they seem at least to form some ideas to continue reviewing such possibilities and more examples of the esoterica on blades.

With all best regards,
Jim

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:23 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 07:57 AM

Posted by:
kronckew

Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have feathers.

interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword.
it did not want to come live with me tho........

.

18th October 2017, 05:20 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Old 6th November 2007, 04:54 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Regarding the scimitar in the cloud image. I always wondered if it represented that the Eastern powers were seen as God's punishment, you know, not enough faith and all that... More things to ponder. Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:30 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:20 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Old 6th November 2007, 03:18 PM Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Interesting to notice what Jim writes, and it is most likely true. In the start trade blades were no doubt of the same quality as the blades used by the soldier of the trading country, but along the way it is also likely that a lesser quality was exported, so in the end the locally made �trade� blade might have been of quite a higher quality than the ones imported. The same happened to the Indian ingots in the early centuries, so in the end the Arabic merchants stationed controllers at the west coast of India, to check the ingots before they were exported. A side remark � there were no doubt a lot of blades imported into India, which did not have any markings, but we will never know how big this import was. Very good explained Jeff, and good instructive illustrations as well. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:31 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:21 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Old 6th November 2007, 03:55 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Excellent observations Jeff! and especially pleased to see that Scottish basket hilt blade, which is a beauty ! I remember that one! This further emphasizes that these Scottish blades were indeed German imports, as the 'Spanish Motto' blades have now been determined to have been produced in variation and number in Solingen. It seems that early Scottish blades bearing patriotic mottos had inscriptions that were noteably Germanic in spelling, such as 'for Schotland and no union'. As you have noted the application of these astral markings as well as the motto seem to have been applied somewhat in disassociated manner as far as original or presumed symbolism, suggesting of course that such blades were made to appeal to certain markets or consumers without particular consideration or understanding of the markings. It would seem also that blades could have been decorated specifically at the request of the consumer. In such case, the coupling of markings indeed would have been found on varied blades intended commercially. The suggestion that Solingen produced special order blades is also seen with the sword bearing arm out of the cloud that we are discussing. In one reference to this particular marking it appears along with a 'sacred heart' marking which is typically regarded as a Catholic associated symbol if I am clear, and in such context with presumed Protestant markings such as the arm in the cloud would again suggest production in a more commercial perspective such as the Solingen blades. It would require a great deal of theological debate to discuss the possible symbolism of most of these allegorical markings, but the general application seems to support the talismanic concept. It seems that early writers on arms such as DeCosson proposed that in many cases the application of what are perceived as names of makers may have been descriptive terms for types of swords, with of course Andrea Ferrara at the fore. Another familiar example is that of 'SAHAGUM'. While this of course is known as a place in Spain, and possibly a makers name, it occurs on blades in elusive variation, and often spelled differently. I have seen this term applied to allegedly Toledo produced blades and actually spelled differently on each side of the blade. Again,clearly Solingen production though the blade heralded 'EN TOLEDO' as well. As you have well said.........lots more pondering!!!!! All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:31 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:21 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Old 6th November 2007, 05:30 PM Posted by; fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, This is a rough translation of the paragraphs concerning the so called magic numbers, referring to the sword i have mentioned before, contained in the book already quoted. I hope this makes some sense and is usefull to the thread topic. If not, it's you who asked for it I myself allways doubt the efectiveness of isoteric stuff ( is this how you call it? ) " It became easy to distinguish European examples from Colonials, as the quality of their fabrication and its artistic level were highly superior to those made in the Colonies. Not so easy, however,was to distinguish examples in the Colonies that were made by Portuguese smiths, engaged by the Overseas Arsenals, from simple copies manufactured in Native anvils. Both versions had imported blades. The wide blades with the mark �Lobo de Passau ( a running wolf ), and with the magic numbers 1414 or 1441, are the oldest examples, which origin is attributed to Portuguese Colonial Arsenals and the realms of Dom Manuel ( 1495-1521 ) untill Dom Sebasti�o ( 1557-1578). It is worthy to mention that the numbers 1414 and 1441 were not the date of production ( under which very often they were classified ) but uniquely the application of a number considered �magic�. The study of numerology, a fashion of the period, attributed to figure �7�, as to its multiples and combinations, a Divine value. While the Arab cried Allah il Allah, the Christian would engrave the number 7 or, more often the 14 ( this being two times 7 ), or 1414 ( this being two times 7 plus another two times 7 ) or 1441 ( being 14 and the palidrome of another 14) on his blade, wishing to express this way his cry for Divine help in all four directions, as from the moment he unsheathed his sword. Number 1414 is also a reference to the Bible; Job, chapter 14, paragrapgh 14: Man dying, will he live again? Every days of my combat i would wait, untill my change arrived (in the Catholic version). Luther, much considered in Germany in the XVI century, has translated the Greek original, offering in simple language,the following interpretation to this Biblic quotation: When a man dyes, he will live again. So i will continue fighting until my moment comes." All the best Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:33 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:22 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Old 7th November 2007, 11:35 AM Posted by; Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Fernando, thank you for the translation, it is most interesting to hear how they marked their weapons, and the meaning of the marking. I have no doubt that the markings you see on European weapons and on weapons from other countries for a great part had a religious meaning, but it is very seldom you see the meaning explained. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:34 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:23 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Old 13th November 2007, 07:57 AM Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have feathers. interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword. it did not want to come live with me tho........ . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:36 PM.