When did wootz blades stop being made in India?

Atlantia · 16th September 2010, 10:40 PM

Is there an accepted date for the 'loss' of wootz manufacture in India?
Wiki claims: The techniques for its making died out around 1700 after the principal sources of special ores needed for its production were depleted.
But is there an accepted terminal date for wootz blades?
Seems to be plenty of late 18th century looking Katars/daggers and swords with wootz blades?

Battara · 17th September 2010, 02:11 AM

Not sure but there is another factor: European monosteels were considered desirable with native folks and the demand decreased.

Lew · 17th September 2010, 04:40 AM

Wootz seemed to be used up until the last half of the of the 19th century. Remember there were plenty of wootz ingots laying around and the last of the old smiths were still making weapons until about 1870.

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2010, 08:14 AM

Hi Gene,
This is really a great question, and I couldnt resist trying to tackle it in some degree, even though I warn you metallurgy is by far one of the many things I know little about, but have always wanted to learn.

Both Jose and Lew have valid points, and from what I can understand, there was probably not a defined end to the 'wootz' process in India, or overall for that matter. Actually crucible steel (aka wootz, Damascus etc.) was made in numerous other locations in Central Asia as well as India. Though the premier wootz came from locations in Hyderabad in the Deccan, I understand that other regions produced also, but not with the quality of the Hyderabad product.

It seems that the ore found in the regions where this wootz was produced carried a number of key impurities in it which included vanadium , which aided in the important carburizing process that gives wootz its distinct patterning properties. This is according to Verhoefen in his work on this subject ("Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel") .

Along with the presence of these impurities in the ore, another of the key features in processing had to do with forging techniques and temperatures.
The wootz actually requires much lower temperatures, and oddly the more primitive processing seems to have been one of the inadvertant secrets, along with the impurities.

In analogy, I think of the great Sean Connery movie "Medicine Man", where a scientist in the Amazon jungle searches for a cancer cure. After years of trying to find effective medicines, he desperately tries to reproduce a compound used by the natives which miraculously works, but with no success. Eventually he discovers the missing ingredient is apparantly sugar, dragged into the mix by busy ants.
It is these primitive forging methods and these mysterious trace elements that made this type of wootz so remarkable.

With changes in the depleting ore supplies in the Hyderabad regions, and the native workers not really knowing of these geological anomalies, only that the ore had lost its necessary processing advantages, it seems that the industry was noticeably impaired. It seems also I had read somewhere that by the 19th century, the British tried to reduce deforestation from this intense wootz production, but cannot locate those notes.

In these times it is noted that the wootz blades were typically quite brittle, though methods of employing hardened edges etc were used in degree. The advent of European contact and thier tough steel blades became most desirable, as did the British colonization with thier industrialized steel affecting changes in production.
It seems that the easier to obtain imported blades, the colonial advent of commercialism and industry with its volume and the depletion of key ore deposits along with cessation of traditional processing effectvely ended the magic of these wootz blades.
As well noted by Lew, there were many of these processed ingots around, in fact I believe some still are, but with the passing of the old timers who no longer trained to continue the trade, much was lost. It would be difficult to assign a definite time or specific reasons for the disappearance of the making of the blades.

While reproducing these blade patterns has been achieved in degree scientifically in many instances, none have ever reached the excellence of these early blades. I believe a number of blades were scientifically analyzed in 1924, about 8 from the 2000+ in the Moser collection.

I look forward to comments/corrections, as I have just begun trying to learn on this fascinating topic, and hope others will join in with observations.

All best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans · 17th September 2010, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Not sure but there is another factor: European monosteels were considered desirable with native folks and the demand decreased.

Yes, indeed. I remember reading that the English General John Jacobs, who served in mid 19th century India, opined that in his day, English cast steel swords were considered superior to all and highly sought by the locals.

Cheers
Chris

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Yes, indeed. I remember reading that the English General John Jacobs, who served in mid 19th century India, opined that in his day, English cast steel swords were considered superior to all and highly sought by the locals.

Cheers
Chris

Now theres some fascinating history! In 1841, Jacobs formed a second unit of the irregular cavalry regiment 'Sind Horse', which later became known as the 36th cavalry, Jacobs Horse. He was known as a very scientific soldier as keenly aware of inadequacies and proposing revisions, so his observations would have been well placed....he was rather a burr under the saddle in London's eyes though.

Addendum:

I just remembered that years ago I had an unusual Indian tulwar which had a hilt of shamshir form, vertically faceted grip, the usual domed quillons and palmette style langet, all in solid steel. Most remarkable was its blade, distinctly a M1788 British light cavalry sabre, beautifully koftgariied at the forte. I have always regarded this sabre from Sind (or Scinde as it was often spelled in those days), and this would serve as perfect illustration of what Jacob was saying.
While the Khorasan region was key in supplying wootz blades in these northern areas, it was clear that these blades were often less than favorable in pitched combat. I recall discussions we have had in the past where it was noted that the British were stunned after they found that Sikh warriors had thier tulwars mounted with old M1796 type sabre blades discarded as obsolete by the British.

It would seem that by early to mid 19th century, advances in warfare technology brought in by European incursion and colonization opened new doors to increased weapons production and with new methods. Clearly the 'firangi' blades were well known even into the Deccan, and both Hyder Ali and Tipu used foreign advisors and mercenaries. Both were known to have had weapons mounted with European blades, and I believe Tipu had an Andrea Ferara blade if I recall.
The steel blades on most later tulwars seem to have used the European type steel in later years as they adopted those processes in forging.

Atlantia · 17th September 2010, 08:12 PM

Brilliant teamwork gentlemen. The pieces come together and the picture forms.

So is it possible to assign a date to the last manufacture of wootz? Is it possible that the wootz weapons made in the 19thC were made using the last of stockpiled ingots from 150 years earlier? (If wiki for once got something right!)
That would have made for some competition for quality ingots as supplies ran short surely?

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Brilliant teamwork gentlemen. The pieces come together and the picture forms.

So is it possible to assign a date to the last manufacture of wootz? Is it possible that the wootz weapons made in the 19thC were made using the last of stockpiled ingots from 150 years earlier? (If wiki for once got something right!)
That would have made for some competition for quality ingots as supplies ran short surely?

Hi Gene,
Again, speaking only as speculation, it would seem that it would be pretty tough to assign a date or even example of the last blade of wootz produced. It would depend on which region was being assessed, the quality or grade of wootz used, and even if anyone had dated the blades, it would be hard to find each one to determine which was oldest. The only reference I could find to approximate was that the last high quality blades probably were effectively produced about mid 18th century. It was suggested that some of the lower grade wootz probably lasted into the 19th century.

In my opinion, since available trade blades, as well as Indian smiths learning to use European smelting methods and steel increased, while the significant ore deposits depleted, the making of wootz trailed off. It would seem that armourers to the courts probably still produced attractive courtly weapons and as these venerable subjects died out, so did the process. Even if they had tried to pass on thier secrets, not being metallurgists, they could not have known that even following steps intricately was to no avail if the inherent impurities in the ore used were absent.

It does seem that the abundance of these wootz steel 'cakes' would have gradually diminished, and it does seem there have been some stockpiles found in armouries somewhere, though there have been concerns over authenticity in some examples shown. As the skills of the armourers in producing wootz also went away, these ingots became more of a novelty it would seem. Im not sure if using the ingot would produce the desired effect unless forging was accomplished according to old methods.

All the best,
Jim

Chris Evans · 18th September 2010, 04:03 AM

Hi Jim,

I also remember reading somewhere that the Brits banned the production of wootz so as to curtail the manufacture of weapons. Can't remember when, but it may have been after the mutiny. All my books are packed away and have to rely on memory, which at my age is a bit of a hit and miss.

Cheers
Chris

bhushan_lawate · 18th September 2010, 06:22 PM

Hi,

An important point here will be to note how the foreign (namely French, Portugese and mostly English) influenced the natives....

Firearms rose in prominence thus rendering Swords and daggers as mere ceremonial objects...and after the Mutiny of 1857 the British seized and destroyed hundreds of swords.

Also the artisans were banned and at instances killed. (numerous such examples available especially in Deccan where families were put to death thus leading to an abrupt end of knowledge of hundreds of years)

Generally speaking it is the post 1857 era which can be treated as a landmark of the end of a golden era in craftsmanship.

Regards,
Bhushan

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2010, 09:15 PM

Hi Chris,
I know what ya mean!!! The library here in the bookmobile is paltry compared to the old days in the house where I had a study!!!

and memory...what?
I think it was in Elgood where the British banned production of wootz in the Deccan to stop deforestation? Environmental? or to eliminate competition for thier growing industry.

Very good points Bhushan, and the advent of firearms became prevalent issue in nearly all colonial environments whether Africa, the Americas, Asia et al. I believe that the swords that were destroyed after the mutiny period were in Malabar regions where the Moplah knives and Ayda Khatti's were destroyed. By the 1870s and 80s when the British dismantled some of the armouries there were thousands of swords and weapons in huge rusting heaps such as at Tanjore most notably.

I agree that the Mutiny was truly a benchmark in the texture of India, and there was certainly a decline in craftsmanship, but I believe in degree the kingdoms and principalities that were diplomatically stable within the Raj still had key artisans. I think some of the catalogs of workmanship that displayed items with amazing work were from many of these regions were compiled by writers like Egerton (1880) and Hendley (I believe 1903) as examples.

I'm just glad that many of these fabulous weapons have been preserved, and that there are still those out there continuing important studies in thier development and history.

All best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 18th September 2010, 09:41 PM

It is interesting Jim, as when a weapon has been bought by a museum, it most likely ends up in the reserves, not to be seen by anyone, or almost by anyone - but when it ends up in a private collection it mostly ends up closed up, for forty or fifty years.
I don't mean that the collectors does nor care for their weapons, just the opposite, but many don't want to show them, for several reasons.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2010, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

It is interesting Jim, as when a weapon has been bought by a museum, it most likely ends up in the reserves, not to be seen by anyone, or almost by anyone - but when it ends up in a private collection it mostly ends up closed up, for forty or fifty years.
I don't mean that the collectors does nor care for their weapons, just the opposite, but many don't want to show them, for several reasons.
Jens

Thats true Jens, too many museums have stored away the weapons which would be so helpful in study...and understandably may of the valuable weapons in private collections are kept very private. They of course end up in estate sales when that time comes and then become for a short time viable study pieces until the cycle continues.
Whatever the case, I am just glad the research continues!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 19th September 2010, 04:39 PM

Chris, I also seem to remember to have read that the English stopped the wootz making in Deccan – due to deforesting as they said. One can, of course, start to speculate about how valid that argument was, but it no doubt helped them selling more English blades.
However, the wootz blades seem to have been made in other places far later than when it was stopped in Deccan.

16th September 2010, 10:40 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	When did wootz blades stop being made in India? Is there an accepted date for the 'loss' of wootz manufacture in India? Wiki claims: The techniques for its making died out around 1700 after the principal sources of special ores needed for its production were depleted. But is there an accepted terminal date for wootz blades? Seems to be plenty of late 18th century looking Katars/daggers and swords with wootz blades?

17th September 2010, 02:11 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Not sure but there is another factor: European monosteels were considered desirable with native folks and the demand decreased.

17th September 2010, 04:40 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Wootz seemed to be used up until the last half of the of the 19th century. Remember there were plenty of wootz ingots laying around and the last of the old smiths were still making weapons until about 1870.

17th September 2010, 08:14 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Gene, This is really a great question, and I couldnt resist trying to tackle it in some degree, even though I warn you metallurgy is by far one of the many things I know little about, but have always wanted to learn. Both Jose and Lew have valid points, and from what I can understand, there was probably not a defined end to the 'wootz' process in India, or overall for that matter. Actually crucible steel (aka wootz, Damascus etc.) was made in numerous other locations in Central Asia as well as India. Though the premier wootz came from locations in Hyderabad in the Deccan, I understand that other regions produced also, but not with the quality of the Hyderabad product. It seems that the ore found in the regions where this wootz was produced carried a number of key impurities in it which included vanadium , which aided in the important carburizing process that gives wootz its distinct patterning properties. This is according to Verhoefen in his work on this subject ("Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel") . Along with the presence of these impurities in the ore, another of the key features in processing had to do with forging techniques and temperatures. The wootz actually requires much lower temperatures, and oddly the more primitive processing seems to have been one of the inadvertant secrets, along with the impurities. In analogy, I think of the great Sean Connery movie "Medicine Man", where a scientist in the Amazon jungle searches for a cancer cure. After years of trying to find effective medicines, he desperately tries to reproduce a compound used by the natives which miraculously works, but with no success. Eventually he discovers the missing ingredient is apparantly sugar, dragged into the mix by busy ants. It is these primitive forging methods and these mysterious trace elements that made this type of wootz so remarkable. With changes in the depleting ore supplies in the Hyderabad regions, and the native workers not really knowing of these geological anomalies, only that the ore had lost its necessary processing advantages, it seems that the industry was noticeably impaired. It seems also I had read somewhere that by the 19th century, the British tried to reduce deforestation from this intense wootz production, but cannot locate those notes. In these times it is noted that the wootz blades were typically quite brittle, though methods of employing hardened edges etc were used in degree. The advent of European contact and thier tough steel blades became most desirable, as did the British colonization with thier industrialized steel affecting changes in production. It seems that the easier to obtain imported blades, the colonial advent of commercialism and industry with its volume and the depletion of key ore deposits along with cessation of traditional processing effectvely ended the magic of these wootz blades. As well noted by Lew, there were many of these processed ingots around, in fact I believe some still are, but with the passing of the old timers who no longer trained to continue the trade, much was lost. It would be difficult to assign a definite time or specific reasons for the disappearance of the making of the blades. While reproducing these blade patterns has been achieved in degree scientifically in many instances, none have ever reached the excellence of these early blades. I believe a number of blades were scientifically analyzed in 1924, about 8 from the 2000+ in the Moser collection. I look forward to comments/corrections, as I have just begun trying to learn on this fascinating topic, and hope others will join in with observations. All best regards, Jim

17th September 2010, 08:12 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Brilliant teamwork gentlemen. The pieces come together and the picture forms. So is it possible to assign a date to the last manufacture of wootz? Is it possible that the wootz weapons made in the 19thC were made using the last of stockpiled ingots from 150 years earlier? (If wiki for once got something right!) That would have made for some competition for quality ingots as supplies ran short surely?

18th September 2010, 04:03 AM	#9
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 661	Hi Jim, I also remember reading somewhere that the Brits banned the production of wootz so as to curtail the manufacture of weapons. Can't remember when, but it may have been after the mutiny. All my books are packed away and have to rely on memory, which at my age is a bit of a hit and miss. Cheers Chris

18th September 2010, 06:22 PM	#10
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, An important point here will be to note how the foreign (namely French, Portugese and mostly English) influenced the natives.... Firearms rose in prominence thus rendering Swords and daggers as mere ceremonial objects...and after the Mutiny of 1857 the British seized and destroyed hundreds of swords. Also the artisans were banned and at instances killed. (numerous such examples available especially in Deccan where families were put to death thus leading to an abrupt end of knowledge of hundreds of years) Generally speaking it is the post 1857 era which can be treated as a landmark of the end of a golden era in craftsmanship. Regards, Bhushan

18th September 2010, 09:15 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Chris, I know what ya mean!!! The library here in the bookmobile is paltry compared to the old days in the house where I had a study!!! and memory...what? I think it was in Elgood where the British banned production of wootz in the Deccan to stop deforestation? Environmental? or to eliminate competition for thier growing industry. Very good points Bhushan, and the advent of firearms became prevalent issue in nearly all colonial environments whether Africa, the Americas, Asia et al. I believe that the swords that were destroyed after the mutiny period were in Malabar regions where the Moplah knives and Ayda Khatti's were destroyed. By the 1870s and 80s when the British dismantled some of the armouries there were thousands of swords and weapons in huge rusting heaps such as at Tanjore most notably. I agree that the Mutiny was truly a benchmark in the texture of India, and there was certainly a decline in craftsmanship, but I believe in degree the kingdoms and principalities that were diplomatically stable within the Raj still had key artisans. I think some of the catalogs of workmanship that displayed items with amazing work were from many of these regions were compiled by writers like Egerton (1880) and Hendley (I believe 1903) as examples. I'm just glad that many of these fabulous weapons have been preserved, and that there are still those out there continuing important studies in thier development and history. All best regards, Jim

18th September 2010, 09:41 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	It is interesting Jim, as when a weapon has been bought by a museum, it most likely ends up in the reserves, not to be seen by anyone, or almost by anyone - but when it ends up in a private collection it mostly ends up closed up, for forty or fifty years. I don't mean that the collectors does nor care for their weapons, just the opposite, but many don't want to show them, for several reasons. Jens

19th September 2010, 04:39 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Chris, I also seem to remember to have read that the English stopped the wootz making in Deccan – due to deforesting as they said. One can, of course, start to speculate about how valid that argument was, but it no doubt helped them selling more English blades. However, the wootz blades seem to have been made in other places far later than when it was stopped in Deccan.