Nice&complete big Surmene knife

erlikhan · 20th September 2005, 11:05 PM

I recently acquired this big Surmene. I liked it when I saw, not only because of its beautiful blade, but also because they're not often seen with the original scabbards and mountings existing, and even plus in so good condition. The hilt is horn and is over the average too. I cant resist thinking that the pommel's shape symbolizes a wild bird head. Total 50 cm.I would like to any comments and any additional info.
regards

Justin · 22nd September 2005, 12:17 AM

Absoloutely gorgeous!

I have only seen a few of these but that is probably the nicest yet,congrats!

Rivkin · 22nd September 2005, 06:10 AM

surmene like in Trabzon, Lazastan ?

erlikhan · 22nd September 2005, 09:19 AM

Thank you very much Justin. Rivkin, yes Surmene is a town in Trabzon province and this type is named after that town. They were mainly made there. I have seen exactly same way stamped and fullered but straight kindjal blades with Caucassian scabbards. Means it was once a serious blade exporter town I guess. (Today they focus on not blades, but have upgraded to very good guns and rifles production)
I got a small yataghan from the same dealer in Istanbul as well. He insists it is a Levent (Turkish naval soldier) arm, short so easy to carry in belt while performing duties on board, but I am not sure..Perhaps just to add some more taste to the story.

Rivkin · 22nd September 2005, 04:29 PM

I've spoken with a couple of Laz martial arts experts. One should take their opinions with a grain of salt, but what they said is:

a. Traditional Laz weapon is a kindjal.
b. Yataghans are not traditional, but appeared mostly due to the influence of "Trabazands Janissaries", laz by origin.
c. "Laz Bichaq" has a very _peculiar_ reputation - it's basically a distinct pirate sword.

erlikhan · 22nd September 2005, 05:03 PM

If you visit Turkey's Black Sea region, you will see that ethnic Lazs are all Muslim, live mainly out of Trabzon province, you must go east in Rize and Artvin till Georgian border to see them in small population like 100.000 and in Trabzon people can accept "Laz" as just something folkloric if anybody calls them so for joke or something like that, but almost none of them accept Laz identity when somebody seriously names them so ethnically,insisting even can cause fight sometimes. I havent heard anything like Laz Janissaries, as Lazs have been Muslim since centuries ago, so how could they be taken as janissary? But if there are available sources about it, i would like to examine. I think many people abroad, confuse local Black sea Greeks, who lived in that region till 1920's as a minority and Lazs somehow, and as far as i observe, generally western collectors like combining every weapon type from any part of the world to individual separate tribes, but according to me, the nuances in styles dont have so definite micro ethnical but more geographical origins in larger scales.
regards

Rivkin · 23rd September 2005, 12:53 AM

What concerns the national identity, it's a hard question to answer. I know a lot of people whose national identity in the past decade migrate to "muslim" - but that does not mean that they can't be called "laz" even if they don't like it

.

Yannis · 23rd September 2005, 08:12 AM

After the slaughter of millions Armenians and Greeks (1910-1922) it was not wise anymore to say that you are minority or Christian in Turkey. In Trabzon they still live crypto-christians.

erlikhan · 23rd September 2005, 01:32 PM

Rivkin I agree that it can happen everywhere,who knows? Perhaps Acaras who are a bit close to Lazs in origin are meant? They are Muslim Georgians in Batum and Artvin area, but they accept their being Georgians.

Yannis, you call population exchange as "slaughtering" ?
The fact, in 1924, 1,2 millions of Greeks went to Greece(all population except Istanbul), and only 400.000 Turks from Greece to Turkey(all except Western Thrace) in the pop. exchange agreement. Whyso less?Because you had massacred millions alreadily from 1820s to 1922, Turks killed under the Greek occupation in Western Turkey being not included,and many Greek today dont deny these facts even defends like "it is normal ,we should clean our motherland from all Turks", while Greek minority in Turkey were living rich and comfortable life serving and backed by imperialists. Dont forget there are still plenty of any kind of churches all around in Turkey but NOT a single remaining mosque in Athens where in Ottoman time there were more than 30 and where still thousands of Muslim Turks and Albanians live,plus construction of a new one is not let in an EU country. That's enough evidence for your country's mentality i guess. Plus, I would prefer to lose all my money and estates and migrate or even to die instead of compromising from myself and my honour.If no Turks in Greece preferred to change their religion and identities to be able to stay there, but if many Greeks as you said- preferred to forget theirs permanently to be able to stay here! and if they still didn't change back even after the peace came in a few years or didnt migrate later to be able to keep their identities, you must ask about your own national characteristics, not ours.

Mark · 23rd September 2005, 02:50 PM

Closing the thread. 30 day bans for that last two posts -- and it will be permenant if I learn that this is the third offense.

Peaple, please, READ THE RULES ON POSTING, and if you must make an off-topic socio-political comment, consider either not making it, or doing it through PM and/or e-mail.

This has NOTHING to do with the merits of either side of a particular dispute, but this forum is just not the place for it.

The key is never to rise to the bait, no matter how carefully laid and temping.

Andrew · 23rd September 2005, 05:30 PM

Allow me to add the same advice I offered the last time this type of exchange occured:

1. Use PM's or Email if you want to air out your nationalistic grievances. Don't pollute this forum with it. It's not welcome here.

2. Don't respond if a post offends you. Report the post to a Staff member instead.

3. Use the "ignore" feature. It works, and makes a member's posts invisible to you.

Yannis and Erlikhan, you are perilously close to losing your posting privileges permanently. If you enjoy this forum as much as we value your contributions, please refrain from this type of conduct in the future.

20th September 2005, 11:05 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Nice&complete big Surmene knife I recently acquired this big Surmene. I liked it when I saw, not only because of its beautiful blade, but also because they're not often seen with the original scabbards and mountings existing, and even plus in so good condition. The hilt is horn and is over the average too. I cant resist thinking that the pommel's shape symbolizes a wild bird head. Total 50 cm.I would like to any comments and any additional info. regards Attached Images

22nd September 2005, 09:19 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thank you very much Justin. Rivkin, yes Surmene is a town in Trabzon province and this type is named after that town. They were mainly made there. I have seen exactly same way stamped and fullered but straight kindjal blades with Caucassian scabbards. Means it was once a serious blade exporter town I guess. (Today they focus on not blades, but have upgraded to very good guns and rifles production) I got a small yataghan from the same dealer in Istanbul as well. He insists it is a Levent (Turkish naval soldier) arm, short so easy to carry in belt while performing duties on board, but I am not sure..Perhaps just to add some more taste to the story. Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 22nd September 2005 at 09:35 AM.

22nd September 2005, 05:03 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	If you visit Turkey's Black Sea region, you will see that ethnic Lazs are all Muslim, live mainly out of Trabzon province, you must go east in Rize and Artvin till Georgian border to see them in small population like 100.000 and in Trabzon people can accept "Laz" as just something folkloric if anybody calls them so for joke or something like that, but almost none of them accept Laz identity when somebody seriously names them so ethnically,insisting even can cause fight sometimes. I havent heard anything like Laz Janissaries, as Lazs have been Muslim since centuries ago, so how could they be taken as janissary? But if there are available sources about it, i would like to examine. I think many people abroad, confuse local Black sea Greeks, who lived in that region till 1920's as a minority and Lazs somehow, and as far as i observe, generally western collectors like combining every weapon type from any part of the world to individual separate tribes, but according to me, the nuances in styles dont have so definite micro ethnical but more geographical origins in larger scales. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 22nd September 2005 at 05:36 PM.

23rd September 2005, 01:32 PM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin I agree that it can happen everywhere,who knows? Perhaps Acaras who are a bit close to Lazs in origin are meant? They are Muslim Georgians in Batum and Artvin area, but they accept their being Georgians. Yannis, you call population exchange as "slaughtering" ? The fact, in 1924, 1,2 millions of Greeks went to Greece(all population except Istanbul), and only 400.000 Turks from Greece to Turkey(all except Western Thrace) in the pop. exchange agreement. Whyso less?Because you had massacred millions alreadily from 1820s to 1922, Turks killed under the Greek occupation in Western Turkey being not included,and many Greek today dont deny these facts even defends like "it is normal ,we should clean our motherland from all Turks", while Greek minority in Turkey were living rich and comfortable life serving and backed by imperialists. Dont forget there are still plenty of any kind of churches all around in Turkey but NOT a single remaining mosque in Athens where in Ottoman time there were more than 30 and where still thousands of Muslim Turks and Albanians live,plus construction of a new one is not let in an EU country. That's enough evidence for your country's mentality i guess. Plus, I would prefer to lose all my money and estates and migrate or even to die instead of compromising from myself and my honour.If no Turks in Greece preferred to change their religion and identities to be able to stay there, but if many Greeks as you said- preferred to forget theirs permanently to be able to stay here! and if they still didn't change back even after the peace came in a few years or didnt migrate later to be able to keep their identities, you must ask about your own national characteristics, not ours. Last edited by erlikhan; 23rd September 2005 at 02:48 PM.

23rd September 2005, 02:50 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Closing the thread. 30 day bans for that last two posts -- and it will be permenant if I learn that this is the third offense. Peaple, please, READ THE RULES ON POSTING, and if you must make an off-topic socio-political comment, consider either not making it, or doing it through PM and/or e-mail. This has NOTHING to do with the merits of either side of a particular dispute, but this forum is just not the place for it. The key is never to rise to the bait, no matter how carefully laid and temping. Last edited by Mark Bowditch; 23rd September 2005 at 08:31 PM. Reason: After further review of the situation, bans extended to 30 days

22nd September 2005, 12:17 AM	#2
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Absoloutely gorgeous! I have only seen a few of these but that is probably the nicest yet,congrats!

22nd September 2005, 06:10 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	surmene like in Trabzon, Lazastan ?

22nd September 2005, 04:29 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I've spoken with a couple of Laz martial arts experts. One should take their opinions with a grain of salt, but what they said is: a. Traditional Laz weapon is a kindjal. b. Yataghans are not traditional, but appeared mostly due to the influence of "Trabazands Janissaries", laz by origin. c. "Laz Bichaq" has a very _peculiar_ reputation - it's basically a distinct pirate sword.

23rd September 2005, 12:53 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	What concerns the national identity, it's a hard question to answer. I know a lot of people whose national identity in the past decade migrate to "muslim" - but that does not mean that they can't be called "laz" even if they don't like it .

23rd September 2005, 08:12 AM	#8
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	After the slaughter of millions Armenians and Greeks (1910-1922) it was not wise anymore to say that you are minority or Christian in Turkey. In Trabzon they still live crypto-christians.

23rd September 2005, 05:30 PM	#11
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Allow me to add the same advice I offered the last time this type of exchange occured: 1. Use PM's or Email if you want to air out your nationalistic grievances. Don't pollute this forum with it. It's not welcome here. 2. Don't respond if a post offends you. Report the post to a Staff member instead. 3. Use the "ignore" feature. It works, and makes a member's posts invisible to you. Yannis and Erlikhan, you are perilously close to losing your posting privileges permanently. If you enjoy this forum as much as we value your contributions, please refrain from this type of conduct in the future.