Help Needed With Koumaya's Maker's Mark Identification

peterweedon · 1st October 2010, 11:30 AM

My name is Peter Weedon and I have accumulated various objects on my travels and now wish to know a bit more about them. The first dagger I acquired was Beja dagger - probably mid 20th century - bought on my honeymoon in Egypt in 1990.

More recently I bought a Moroccan koumaya with a maker's mark on the blade. Despite several trips to Morocco, first in 1992, I was unable to find a dagger at the right price so this one came from the US via eBay. I hope it is original but am concerned it may be a tourist piece. There does appear to be a slight difference in the metalwork design to the front of the hilt and the scabbard but the etching on the reverse of both is the same so I hope that both belong to each other.

Can anyone help identify the age and manufacturer/region of the blade?

Thanks

Peter

sabertasche · 3rd October 2010, 12:36 AM

Welcome to the forum Peter. I can't comment on your dagger as I do not collect them but I'm sure someone will. I oook forward to seeing more of your collection.

Regards,

Greg

Sajen · 3rd October 2010, 03:26 AM

Welcome to the forum. It's also not my field of collecting but I think that it's an originial one. It is not unusual that this daggers have silver on the front side and brass at the back side. Someone with more knowlegde in this field will tell you more.

Regards,

Detlef

Lee · 3rd October 2010, 01:40 PM

I do not believe this to be a 'tourist' piece. It is sometimes amazing just how much handwork, sometimes of decent quality, one can find in a $10 tourist dagger in Morocco, but in that case the effort is usually directed a bit more towards flashiness.

The finish and details on your dagger appear quite decent; I suspect the panels on the front are more likely 'German silver' than silver. So my gestalt is towards an ordinary 'working' man's example from the first half of the 20th century.

I wish I had some idea about where from within Morocco it has come, but I am clueless and unaware of where to find a resource to guide us in that regard.

Lee · 3rd October 2010, 01:58 PM

Here is an interesting example in the Victoria and Albert museum. Not the fancy silver mounts and of similar form to yours and dressed up in a rather spiffy carrier!

peterweedon · 3rd October 2010, 06:56 PM

Thanks for the welcome and replies.

It was a frustrating experience trying to be one of these in Morocco - and sadly not for $10. The opening asking prices were astronomical and several I saw were described as "rare" - despite there being several examples in the shop and probably dozens in the souq.

My gut reaction is that I'm fairly happy with this although it remains an enigma. I would like to be able to tie some of its history to an era or region.

Peter

fernando · 3rd October 2010, 07:01 PM

Welcome to the forum, Peter

Such as pity we can't see the complete maker's mark on the blade

.
Could you post a new picture showing all the letters?

peterweedon · 3rd October 2010, 10:13 PM

Fernando

This is the best I can do. I can't determine whether the last mark on the top row (above the reversed N) is an arrow or pitting.

Peter

Battara · 3rd October 2010, 10:56 PM

Welcome to the forum.

Yeah in Morocco the only place to get an antique one of great quality (and expense therefore) is from a bona fide antiques dealer. Otherwise, anywhere in the medina would have tourist pieces. I didn't even see many of those when I was in Morocco, even in the great Fez medina.

peterweedon · 5th October 2010, 05:45 PM

I wonder if the numerals (if that is what they are) indicate a date?

The English translation of "Mai" is May.

No other ideas from me.

Peter

fernando · 6th October 2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterweedon

I wonder if the numerals (if that is what they are) indicate a date?

The English translation of "Mai" is May.

No other ideas from me.

Peter

I confess i curious and wishing to decipher those marks, but now i wouldn't know how to figure that out

.
They certainly are letters and numerals; but Moroccans would preferably write in Arabic ... unless this were very recent stuff and the writing were directed to tourists.
Also the dates would be counting as from the Hejira calendar, so any guess like 10 May 2010 wouldn't be so probable ... unless again a tourist attitude.
There are cases where these Latin/Roman letterings do not make any sense, being only a purpose of giving a certain European flavour to things, like the Turks (Ottoman) used to engrave in their weapons ... i think not only to offer them to tourists.
Let's see whether someone more into these items will tell us what these marks represent.

peterweedon · 11th October 2010, 12:22 PM

Please can the title of the thread be changed to:
Help Needed With Koumaya's Maker's Mark Identification

Thanks

Peter

NB No need to post this request in the thread.

1st October 2010, 11:30 AM	#1
peterweedon Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 5	Help Needed With Koumaya's Maker's Mark Identification My name is Peter Weedon and I have accumulated various objects on my travels and now wish to know a bit more about them. The first dagger I acquired was Beja dagger - probably mid 20th century - bought on my honeymoon in Egypt in 1990. More recently I bought a Moroccan koumaya with a maker's mark on the blade. Despite several trips to Morocco, first in 1992, I was unable to find a dagger at the right price so this one came from the US via eBay. I hope it is original but am concerned it may be a tourist piece. There does appear to be a slight difference in the metalwork design to the front of the hilt and the scabbard but the etching on the reverse of both is the same so I hope that both belong to each other. Can anyone help identify the age and manufacturer/region of the blade? Thanks Peter Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 11th October 2010 at 06:32 PM.

3rd October 2010, 01:40 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 894	'Working' man's dagger I do not believe this to be a 'tourist' piece. It is sometimes amazing just how much handwork, sometimes of decent quality, one can find in a $10 tourist dagger in Morocco, but in that case the effort is usually directed a bit more towards flashiness. The finish and details on your dagger appear quite decent; I suspect the panels on the front are more likely 'German silver' than silver. So my gestalt is towards an ordinary 'working' man's example from the first half of the 20th century. I wish I had some idea about where from within Morocco it has come, but I am clueless and unaware of where to find a resource to guide us in that regard.

3rd October 2010, 01:58 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 894	Example in the V&A Here is an interesting example in the Victoria and Albert museum. Not the fancy silver mounts and of similar form to yours and dressed up in a rather spiffy carrier!

3rd October 2010, 10:13 PM	#8
peterweedon Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 5	Fernando This is the best I can do. I can't determine whether the last mark on the top row (above the reversed N) is an arrow or pitting. Peter Attached Images

5th October 2010, 05:45 PM	#10
peterweedon Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 5	I wonder if the numerals (if that is what they are) indicate a date? The English translation of "Mai" is May. No other ideas from me. Peter Last edited by peterweedon; 6th October 2010 at 12:03 PM. Reason: To correct a spelling mistake

3rd October 2010, 12:36 AM	#2
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	Welcome to the forum Peter. I can't comment on your dagger as I do not collect them but I'm sure someone will. I oook forward to seeing more of your collection. Regards, Greg

3rd October 2010, 03:26 AM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,509	Welcome to the forum. It's also not my field of collecting but I think that it's an originial one. It is not unusual that this daggers have silver on the front side and brass at the back side. Someone with more knowlegde in this field will tell you more. Regards, Detlef

3rd October 2010, 06:56 PM	#6
peterweedon Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 5	Thanks for the welcome and replies. It was a frustrating experience trying to be one of these in Morocco - and sadly not for $10. The opening asking prices were astronomical and several I saw were described as "rare" - despite there being several examples in the shop and probably dozens in the souq. My gut reaction is that I'm fairly happy with this although it remains an enigma. I would like to be able to tie some of its history to an era or region. Peter

3rd October 2010, 07:01 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Welcome to the forum, Peter Such as pity we can't see the complete maker's mark on the blade . Could you post a new picture showing all the letters?

3rd October 2010, 10:56 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Welcome to the forum. Yeah in Morocco the only place to get an antique one of great quality (and expense therefore) is from a bona fide antiques dealer. Otherwise, anywhere in the medina would have tourist pieces. I didn't even see many of those when I was in Morocco, even in the great Fez medina.

11th October 2010, 12:22 PM	#12
peterweedon Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 5	Please can the title of the thread be changed to: Help Needed With Koumaya's Maker's Mark Identification Thanks Peter NB No need to post this request in the thread.