Southern India sword?

kronckew · 30th June 2015, 05:13 PM

just got off the phone with one of my friends whom offered me this sword, he suspects it's 18c or earlier southern india. anyway, it's mine now & will be with me shortly.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what it really is, when where it might be from? thanks in advance for any info.

no details on length/weight etc. yet. grip scales are horn of some sort, look riveted on, small gap between the guard & scale i assume from shrinkage. not sure if the guard is polished or gold plated. probably the former. more info/better photos on arrival...

Jim McDougall · 1st July 2015, 12:01 PM

This is really a pretty intriguing sword, and at this point I am inclined to agree with the South India suggestion. I have not looked into any references yet but I think in "Hindu Arms & Ritual" there are examples of somewhat similar character. This seems a variant reflecting the often seen Ottoman influence which seems to have pervaded so many things culturally in Mughal courts.
As to the 18th century assessment, the blade seems to be of trade blade form of latter part 18th into 19th German forms. These kinds of blades can be seen even later according to Gilkerson ("Boarders Away") as 'cutlass' types.

kronckew · 4th July 2015, 04:55 PM

found this while googling indian short swords:

Quote:

Antique Arms, Armour & Militaria Sale
on Wednesday 30th June 2010

Lots: 91-120 of 472

AN UNUSUAL NORTH INDIAN SWORD, 19TH CENTURY
with polished steel straight single-edged blade, steel hilt extending over the forte with a pair of shaped panels, recurved knuckle-guard with bud-shaped finial, swelling steel grip engraved with a panel of foliage around the top and rising to a beaked pommel, and retaining traces of silver plating, in its fabric-covered wooden scabbard
71cm; 28in blade

mine seems to have an older trade blade tho.

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2015, 05:31 PM

The triple fuller trade blades are well known from Solingen end of 18th c. and these were well known in India, especially in Deccani areas as these states often used German mercenary forces and arms. Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan were key examples, and the swords known as 'alemani').

The distinction between South and North India in classifying weapons is constantly compromised by the often vaguely applied use of the term Deccan. There are various perspectives on whether this is a geographic or cultural application, and there were profound connections between the Deccani regions considered Southern and those to the Northwest .
There lies part of the conundrum of regionally classifying Indian arms in so many instances.
The axiom I was once told, 'weapons have no geographic boundaries' always reminds me of this in all manner of ethnographic studies. The only real solution is often preponderance and or reliable provenance .

kronckew · 4th July 2015, 10:12 PM

another tidbit of info. the sword (mine) was found in france, which we tend to forget had 'posessions' in south east india and further influence in nearby areas for quite a while. could have been brought back by a frenchman in that era of the french east india co. - 18/19c.

or maybe a french collector like us acquired it from only god knows where.

i love a good mystery. especially if it has swords in it.

RSWORD · 5th July 2015, 01:26 AM

Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like the blade was mounted up with this guard when the blade was in its current condition. The rust/patina of the blade continues on undisturbed beneath the guard. If it had been there a long time you would have expected the patina to follow the outline of the guard and the holes and not be continuous from the exposed blade portion. Not to say the handle and blade haven't been together for awhile but the guard seems a much, much later addition. Still, an interesting piece that one wishes could speak to us.

30th June 2015, 05:13 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	Southern India sword? just got off the phone with one of my friends whom offered me this sword, he suspects it's 18c or earlier southern india. anyway, it's mine now & will be with me shortly. does anyone have any suggestions as to what it really is, when where it might be from? thanks in advance for any info. no details on length/weight etc. yet. grip scales are horn of some sort, look riveted on, small gap between the guard & scale i assume from shrinkage. not sure if the guard is polished or gold plated. probably the former. more info/better photos on arrival... Attached Images

1st July 2015, 12:01 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,742	This is really a pretty intriguing sword, and at this point I am inclined to agree with the South India suggestion. I have not looked into any references yet but I think in "Hindu Arms & Ritual" there are examples of somewhat similar character. This seems a variant reflecting the often seen Ottoman influence which seems to have pervaded so many things culturally in Mughal courts. As to the 18th century assessment, the blade seems to be of trade blade form of latter part 18th into 19th German forms. These kinds of blades can be seen even later according to Gilkerson ("Boarders Away") as 'cutlass' types.

4th July 2015, 05:31 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,742	The triple fuller trade blades are well known from Solingen end of 18th c. and these were well known in India, especially in Deccani areas as these states often used German mercenary forces and arms. Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan were key examples, and the swords known as 'alemani'). The distinction between South and North India in classifying weapons is constantly compromised by the often vaguely applied use of the term Deccan. There are various perspectives on whether this is a geographic or cultural application, and there were profound connections between the Deccani regions considered Southern and those to the Northwest . There lies part of the conundrum of regionally classifying Indian arms in so many instances. The axiom I was once told, 'weapons have no geographic boundaries' always reminds me of this in all manner of ethnographic studies. The only real solution is often preponderance and or reliable provenance .

4th July 2015, 10:12 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	another tidbit of info. the sword (mine) was found in france, which we tend to forget had 'posessions' in south east india and further influence in nearby areas for quite a while. could have been brought back by a frenchman in that era of the french east india co. - 18/19c. or maybe a french collector like us acquired it from only god knows where. i love a good mystery. especially if it has swords in it.

5th July 2015, 01:26 AM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like the blade was mounted up with this guard when the blade was in its current condition. The rust/patina of the blade continues on undisturbed beneath the guard. If it had been there a long time you would have expected the patina to follow the outline of the guard and the holes and not be continuous from the exposed blade portion. Not to say the handle and blade haven't been together for awhile but the guard seems a much, much later addition. Still, an interesting piece that one wishes could speak to us.