Why Is It

Rick · 13th March 2008, 03:33 PM

That most of the Bali / Lombok keris that I see have plain ganjas (ganja wulung) ?

Yes, some of the newer examples have pamor in their ganjas but it seems from my observations that most of the earlier ones do not .

David · 13th March 2008, 06:28 PM

Thanks for posting this Rick. After our discussion i was going to ask the group the same question myself. I have examined all my Bali keris and only one has pamor on the gonjo. I am fairly certain that one is a contemporary piece, late 20th century. Nearly all my others (there are about 12 in my collection) are 19th century or earlier. They all have no pamor on the gonjo.
Good question.

A. G. Maisey · 13th March 2008, 10:18 PM

The easy answer is, I reckon, "style".

Somewhere along the line they decided that the correct gonjo for a keris was plain black, no pamor.

However, if we then ask why this style developed, we can perhaps come up with a couple of ideas.

There is the concept that it is a desirable thing to hide the pamor of a blade for reasons of personal protection against misuse. A black gonjo does this nicely.

Then there is the manufacturing problem.

The traditional forge that is used by smiths in Jawa and Bali is just a shallow depression in the ground, with the blast being provided by two rather narrow bambu tubes connected to ububan---upright cylinders with plungers that look like big feather dusters. The plungers are moved up and down, and the blast of air goes through the bambu into the fire. The fire is usually quite shallow by western standards, which means that it is difficult to avoid welding in an oxidising atmosphere, something that is not at all desireable.In fact, it is not easy to coax a welding heat from a fire like this---I've tried, and under the same conditions that old time smiths in Jawa and Bali worked under, I cannot weld.

Old time smiths often used rocks as both heavy hammer and anvil, all the family would be involved in the work, and the strikers were often women.
Taking account of the technical limitations with equipment, it is sometimes a wonder to me that the old time smiths in this part of the world could produce anything at all.

But they did.

However, to produce a forging of pamor material, sufficient to allow a gonjo to be cut from the end of it, before, or even after, the core was inserted, would have been committing to more work than was really necessary, and the necessary work was already stretching the limits of the technology.

To make a separate forging from pamor material for the gonjo would involve more work than to use plain iron.

Think about it:- what is the practical purpose of pamor in a blade?

It is to extend the quantity of inferior material and to provide protection for the steel core or edge ( dependent on method of construction).

The gonjo does not need to be hard, and never is, even where it may be made of hardenable material.

Why waste resources and add to cost, when this is totally unnecessary?

In modern terms, these old time smiths had their accountants do a cost-benefit analysis, and they were advised that the additional price that they could charge the customer for a pamor gonjo did not support the additional cost of its production.

ferrylaki · 14th March 2008, 03:06 AM

Thanks for your explanation Alan,
This explain many things,
I always thought that gonjo should be as hard as the blade it self.
I usually thought if gonjo is not hard, then it will be damage easily be the waranga ( on greneng part ) and the air ( corotion).
Its obvious that pamor gonjo cutted from lower part of the kodokan would make the keris making process much longer.

So, I recon that making a few gonjos for stock is might be a good idea.???
is it acceptable?
I am now asking some body to make some new kerises for me. Some body who is totally new in keris making. And making a gonjo would give another 2 days in process. these cost more money of couse.
If only I already has some plain black ( kelengan) gonjos, then the keris making process will cut a few days in advance.make it faster and cheaper , am I right???

FERRY,
JAKARTA, INDONESIA

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The easy answer is, I reckon, "style".

Somewhere along the line they decided that the correct gonjo for a keris was plain black, no pamor.

However, if we then ask why this style developed, we can perhaps come up with a couple of ideas.

There is the concept that it is a desirable thing to hide the pamor of a blade for reasons of personal protection against misuse. A black gonjo does this nicely.

Then there is the manufacturing problem.

The traditional forge that is used by smiths in Jawa and Bali is just a shallow depression in the ground, with the blast being provided by two rather narrow bambu tubes connected to ububan---upright cylinders with plungers that look like big feather dusters. The plungers are moved up and down, and the blast of air goes through the bambu into the fire. The fire is usually quite shallow by western standards, which means that it is difficult to avoid welding in an oxidising atmosphere, something that is not at all desireable.In fact, it is not easy to coax a welding heat from a fire like this---I've tried, and under the same conditions that old time smiths in Jawa and Bali worked under, I cannot weld.

Old time smiths often used rocks as both heavy hammer and anvil, all the family would be involved in the work, and the strikers were often women.
Taking account of the technical limitations with equipment, it is sometimes a wonder to me that the old time smiths in this part of the world could produce anything at all.

But they did.

However, to produce a forging of pamor material, sufficient to allow a gonjo to be cut from the end of it, before, or even after, the core was inserted, would have been committing to more work than was really necessary, and the necessary work was already stretching the limits of the technology.

To make a separate forging from pamor material for the gonjo would involve more work than to use plain iron.

Think about it:- what is the practical purpose of pamor in a blade?

It is to extend the quantity of inferior material and to provide protection for the steel core or edge ( dependent on method of construction).

The gonjo does not need to be hard, and never is, even where it may be made of hardenable material.

Why waste resources and add to cost, when this is totally unnecessary?

In modern terms, these old time smiths had their accountants do a cost-benefit analysis, and they were advised that the additional price that they could charge the customer for a pamor gonjo did not support the additional cost of its production.

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2008, 04:54 AM

No, the gonjo is never heat treated, in fact, I've never seen a blade where the heat treatment had gone past the tip of the sogokan, or where the sogokan would be if there was one. Very often only the tip of a blade---maybe the first couple of inches---is heat treated.In some Surakarta blades from about the mid-1800's on, no heat treatment at all has been done.

If a wrongko is properly made, it will never damage any part of a keris.

No Ferry, you cannot make a stock of gonjos and hope that if you later have need you can just fit them. You could probably get a few oversize forgings made and have them ready if you need to replace a gonjo, but the gonjo must be made for the blade it is going on to.Everything needs to be precisely aligned and fitted tight.In my opinion it is best to make a gonjo as you need it, if you need to replace one, and if you are making a new blade, then of course you will make the gonjo as required. If you've got to make it anyway, does it make any difference if you make it now, or in 12 months time when you need it?

The saving in making a plain black gonjo for a new keris, especially a large blade, comes in not having to weld pamor, and under the old time conditions, making the job easier by not trying to make the pamor forging big enough to cut a gonjo from it.

kai · 14th March 2008, 10:47 AM

Hello Alan,

Are these old gonjo really all without pamor? I remember a few with linear lamination which seemed to be genuinely old (this pamor would not be visible as long as the keris is sheathed). Since the pamor layers are usually wider spread apart in Keris Bali it may be that the visual benefits of a blade with pamor gonjo were not that great anyway.

However, it is interesting to note that many Moro kris have laminated gangya despite not being treated with warangan and thus fairly inconspicuous. Seems like the forging/material for such large blades was less of an issue rather than local customs/style.

I'd lean towards the "hiding the pamor" working hypothesis but this seems difficult to test nowadays...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2008, 01:49 PM

Kai, the Philippines are not Jawa and Bali.

I do not know how Philippine smiths worked, but I do know very well the technology used in old Jawa and Bali, size of the work piece was definitely a factor.

When you get right down to close investigation of the origins of most cultural practices, the practice has its roots in solid practicality, only after it has been adopted because of practical reasons do religious and other reasons come into play and call the practice their own. Have a look at the food restrictions of various religions:- firmly based in practicality. Look at our beloved Ten Commandments:- complete practicality. It can go on and on.Something might be a cultural more or religious practice now, but 2000 years ago it was begun for a practical reason.

The world is a practical place, and mankind does not do things that do not return a profit.Not if he wants to survive. I use the word "profit" in the broadest possible sense.

David · 14th March 2008, 09:46 PM

I don't know. I am much more likely to lean towards the hiding the pamor theory than one of cost control. Cost and difficulty didn't seem to stop pamor on the gonjo on Javanese keris, why should it be the issue in Bali? And certainly i can see how hiding the pamor might be considered a "profit" to the owner of the keris, as you say Alan, in the broadest sense of the word.

kai · 14th March 2008, 10:30 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I do not know how Philippine smiths worked, but I do know very well the technology used in old Jawa and Bali, size of the work piece was definitely a factor.

Acknowledged. I didn't mean to suggest that a larger billet wouldn't be more difficult to forge.

However, don't have regular Keris from the Majapahit era often/usually gonjo with pamor? (Several of the early keris preserved in European collections do have a gonjo with pamor - all are out of stain and most are polished so it's hard to generalize). What are the oldest known keris originating from Bali like?

Assuming that early keris from Bali shared their characteristics with Keris Jawa, it seems that the gonjo lost their pamor during later development in Bali rather than this being based on practical constraints of the early keris smiths. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

One could argue that this development may have been correlated with the Keris Bali attaining a larger size (i.e. making it more and more difficult to forge a gonjo from the same billet than with their smaller cousins from Jawa). That's why I mentioned Moro kris since they still used laminated gangya (same material as used to sandwich the blade's steel core in between) despite even larger blades. This doesn't proove anything since these are separate cultural/technological developments but I yet have to see a strong case for the "forging constraints" hypothesis.

Regards,
Kai

13th March 2008, 03:33 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Why Is It That most of the Bali / Lombok keris that I see have plain ganjas (ganja wulung) ? Yes, some of the newer examples have pamor in their ganjas but it seems from my observations that most of the earlier ones do not .

14th March 2008, 10:47 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,218	Hello Alan, Are these old gonjo really all without pamor? I remember a few with linear lamination which seemed to be genuinely old (this pamor would not be visible as long as the keris is sheathed). Since the pamor layers are usually wider spread apart in Keris Bali it may be that the visual benefits of a blade with pamor gonjo were not that great anyway. However, it is interesting to note that many Moro kris have laminated gangya despite not being treated with warangan and thus fairly inconspicuous. Seems like the forging/material for such large blades was less of an issue rather than local customs/style. I'd lean towards the "hiding the pamor" working hypothesis but this seems difficult to test nowadays... Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 14th March 2008 at 08:58 PM. Reason: clarification

13th March 2008, 06:28 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,026	Thanks for posting this Rick. After our discussion i was going to ask the group the same question myself. I have examined all my Bali keris and only one has pamor on the gonjo. I am fairly certain that one is a contemporary piece, late 20th century. Nearly all my others (there are about 12 in my collection) are 19th century or earlier. They all have no pamor on the gonjo. Good question.

13th March 2008, 10:18 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	The easy answer is, I reckon, "style". Somewhere along the line they decided that the correct gonjo for a keris was plain black, no pamor. However, if we then ask why this style developed, we can perhaps come up with a couple of ideas. There is the concept that it is a desirable thing to hide the pamor of a blade for reasons of personal protection against misuse. A black gonjo does this nicely. Then there is the manufacturing problem. The traditional forge that is used by smiths in Jawa and Bali is just a shallow depression in the ground, with the blast being provided by two rather narrow bambu tubes connected to ububan---upright cylinders with plungers that look like big feather dusters. The plungers are moved up and down, and the blast of air goes through the bambu into the fire. The fire is usually quite shallow by western standards, which means that it is difficult to avoid welding in an oxidising atmosphere, something that is not at all desireable.In fact, it is not easy to coax a welding heat from a fire like this---I've tried, and under the same conditions that old time smiths in Jawa and Bali worked under, I cannot weld. Old time smiths often used rocks as both heavy hammer and anvil, all the family would be involved in the work, and the strikers were often women. Taking account of the technical limitations with equipment, it is sometimes a wonder to me that the old time smiths in this part of the world could produce anything at all. But they did. However, to produce a forging of pamor material, sufficient to allow a gonjo to be cut from the end of it, before, or even after, the core was inserted, would have been committing to more work than was really necessary, and the necessary work was already stretching the limits of the technology. To make a separate forging from pamor material for the gonjo would involve more work than to use plain iron. Think about it:- what is the practical purpose of pamor in a blade? It is to extend the quantity of inferior material and to provide protection for the steel core or edge ( dependent on method of construction). The gonjo does not need to be hard, and never is, even where it may be made of hardenable material. Why waste resources and add to cost, when this is totally unnecessary? In modern terms, these old time smiths had their accountants do a cost-benefit analysis, and they were advised that the additional price that they could charge the customer for a pamor gonjo did not support the additional cost of its production.

14th March 2008, 04:54 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	No, the gonjo is never heat treated, in fact, I've never seen a blade where the heat treatment had gone past the tip of the sogokan, or where the sogokan would be if there was one. Very often only the tip of a blade---maybe the first couple of inches---is heat treated.In some Surakarta blades from about the mid-1800's on, no heat treatment at all has been done. If a wrongko is properly made, it will never damage any part of a keris. No Ferry, you cannot make a stock of gonjos and hope that if you later have need you can just fit them. You could probably get a few oversize forgings made and have them ready if you need to replace a gonjo, but the gonjo must be made for the blade it is going on to.Everything needs to be precisely aligned and fitted tight.In my opinion it is best to make a gonjo as you need it, if you need to replace one, and if you are making a new blade, then of course you will make the gonjo as required. If you've got to make it anyway, does it make any difference if you make it now, or in 12 months time when you need it? The saving in making a plain black gonjo for a new keris, especially a large blade, comes in not having to weld pamor, and under the old time conditions, making the job easier by not trying to make the pamor forging big enough to cut a gonjo from it.

14th March 2008, 01:49 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Kai, the Philippines are not Jawa and Bali. I do not know how Philippine smiths worked, but I do know very well the technology used in old Jawa and Bali, size of the work piece was definitely a factor. When you get right down to close investigation of the origins of most cultural practices, the practice has its roots in solid practicality, only after it has been adopted because of practical reasons do religious and other reasons come into play and call the practice their own. Have a look at the food restrictions of various religions:- firmly based in practicality. Look at our beloved Ten Commandments:- complete practicality. It can go on and on.Something might be a cultural more or religious practice now, but 2000 years ago it was begun for a practical reason. The world is a practical place, and mankind does not do things that do not return a profit.Not if he wants to survive. I use the word "profit" in the broadest possible sense.

14th March 2008, 09:46 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,026	I don't know. I am much more likely to lean towards the hiding the pamor theory than one of cost control. Cost and difficulty didn't seem to stop pamor on the gonjo on Javanese keris, why should it be the issue in Bali? And certainly i can see how hiding the pamor might be considered a "profit" to the owner of the keris, as you say Alan, in the broadest sense of the word.