Regarding the origin of blades on Polish Sabres

Sakalord364 · 3rd April 2024, 12:09 AM

Were the majority of blades found on Polish sabres of the 17th/18th century of foreign, i.e German and Italian make, or did native smiths also forge their own blades?

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2024, 02:43 PM

Good question, and VERY complex. While Polish saber forms of those times as well known, emulated Ottoman forms, the blades were typically Styrian from several centers, though there was notable sword making in Lvov.

As may be expected of course there are many variations and exceptions but overall, there were very few examples of German or Italian blades on Polish sabers.

You might use the 'search' using the name OSTROWSKI, where many discussions on Polish sabers come up over the years. The outstanding article "Polish Sabers: Origins and Evolution" Jan Ostrowski, 1979 is keyed here, and one of the most useful references on this topic. This actually is featured in "Art, Arms and Armor: An International Anthology", ed. Robert Held, 1979-80.

awdaniec666 · 8th April 2024, 11:41 PM

We have very few historic sources about blade distribution in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

To understand blade design one must acknowledge the existence of different cultures in a melting pot region like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (f.e. Germanic, Lithuanian, Tatar, Ottoman, Rus (no, this is not Russia), Muscovites, Czech, Scottish, French...).

While most will know what you mean by "Polish, German and Italian", it is necessary to precise those terms - Nations in our sense came up later in history. This has been explained in other threads.

The majority of "Polish blades" did not emulate Ottoman designs in the 17th/18th century any more (see W. Zablocki "Ciecia prawdziwa szabla"). Even in times before that the blueprint were Hungarian designs which themselves derived from the Ottomans to a certain degree (compare with f.e. "Kardok" by Ferenc Temesvary). Despite that there has been import of original Ottoman wares of course. Funnily, there are relative many sources with evidence for invitations and orders for Italian blade smiths to the Kingdom of Poland in the 17th century. This is why there are quite a few of North-Italian marks on Eastern European blades.

I must contradict or specify the claim that a major sword making centre was in Lwów (now Lviv, never Lvov). The luxury "Schwertfeger"-branch (is there a English term for that?) was important there, yes, but the blades came from elsewhere. "Warsztat Lwowski" is something an auctioneer is always keen to write under the lot to sound informed.

What we can do these days is to examine the surviving specimen and count regional easily assignable blades (Beware of over-representation of dress-swords in the literature!!!). My extremely over-simplified wild guess for now would be:

1600-1650: 60 % Styria or Hungary, 30 % PLC, 10 % Elsewhere
1650-1700: 40 % Styria or Hungary, 40 % PLC, 20 % Elsewhere
1700-1750: 50 % PLC, 30 % Styria, 20 % Elsewhere
1750-1800: 30 % PLC, 70 % Elsewhere

General production places in this 200 year time period were evenly distributed across the Kingdom and Grand Duchy. Magnates often had their local craftsmen.

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2024, 01:36 AM

Thanks for the elucidation on Lwow, etc. Instead of sword 'making' I might have used 'cutler' as clearly the blades being used were from other BLADE making centers. Good points on the use of 'national' terms as in those times as there were principalities, kingdoms, city states, duchies or whatever the appropriate geopolitical terms used in describing the select regions being noted.

Also well noted on the descriptions of weapons in these categories with auctions, sellers etc. as they seldom reach the empirically and academically detailed pedigrees that delve into these complexities of the swords of these regions.

Well described and noted!

3rd April 2024, 12:09 AM	#1
Sakalord364 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 32	Regarding the origin of blades on Polish Sabres Were the majority of blades found on Polish sabres of the 17th/18th century of foreign, i.e German and Italian make, or did native smiths also forge their own blades?

8th April 2024, 11:41 PM	#3
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Northern Germany Posts: 143	We have very few historic sources about blade distribution in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. To understand blade design one must acknowledge the existence of different cultures in a melting pot region like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (f.e. Germanic, Lithuanian, Tatar, Ottoman, Rus (no, this is not Russia), Muscovites, Czech, Scottish, French...). While most will know what you mean by "Polish, German and Italian", it is necessary to precise those terms - Nations in our sense came up later in history. This has been explained in other threads. The majority of "Polish blades" did not emulate Ottoman designs in the 17th/18th century any more (see W. Zablocki "Ciecia prawdziwa szabla"). Even in times before that the blueprint were Hungarian designs which themselves derived from the Ottomans to a certain degree (compare with f.e. "Kardok" by Ferenc Temesvary). Despite that there has been import of original Ottoman wares of course. Funnily, there are relative many sources with evidence for invitations and orders for Italian blade smiths to the Kingdom of Poland in the 17th century. This is why there are quite a few of North-Italian marks on Eastern European blades. I must contradict or specify the claim that a major sword making centre was in Lwów (now Lviv, never Lvov). The luxury "Schwertfeger"-branch (is there a English term for that?) was important there, yes, but the blades came from elsewhere. "Warsztat Lwowski" is something an auctioneer is always keen to write under the lot to sound informed. What we can do these days is to examine the surviving specimen and count regional easily assignable blades (Beware of over-representation of dress-swords in the literature!!!). My extremely over-simplified wild guess for now would be: 1600-1650: 60 % Styria or Hungary, 30 % PLC, 10 % Elsewhere 1650-1700: 40 % Styria or Hungary, 40 % PLC, 20 % Elsewhere 1700-1750: 50 % PLC, 30 % Styria, 20 % Elsewhere 1750-1800: 30 % PLC, 70 % Elsewhere General production places in this 200 year time period were evenly distributed across the Kingdom and Grand Duchy. Magnates often had their local craftsmen. Last edited by awdaniec666; 8th April 2024 at 11:54 PM.

3rd April 2024, 02:43 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,753	Good question, and VERY complex. While Polish saber forms of those times as well known, emulated Ottoman forms, the blades were typically Styrian from several centers, though there was notable sword making in Lvov. As may be expected of course there are many variations and exceptions but overall, there were very few examples of German or Italian blades on Polish sabers. You might use the 'search' using the name OSTROWSKI, where many discussions on Polish sabers come up over the years. The outstanding article "Polish Sabers: Origins and Evolution" Jan Ostrowski, 1979 is keyed here, and one of the most useful references on this topic. This actually is featured in "Art, Arms and Armor: An International Anthology", ed. Robert Held, 1979-80.

10th April 2024, 01:36 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,753	Thanks for the elucidation on Lwow, etc. Instead of sword 'making' I might have used 'cutler' as clearly the blades being used were from other BLADE making centers. Good points on the use of 'national' terms as in those times as there were principalities, kingdoms, city states, duchies or whatever the appropriate geopolitical terms used in describing the select regions being noted. Also well noted on the descriptions of weapons in these categories with auctions, sellers etc. as they seldom reach the empirically and academically detailed pedigrees that delve into these complexities of the swords of these regions. Well described and noted!