Kerises: Bali vs. Jawa etc

ariel · 1st March 2013, 11:31 PM

Once again, sorry for my naivete.
According to Frey's book, Jawanese kerises are incomparably more complex from the technical point of view than the Balinese ones.
If so, why do we see so many modern Jawanese blades and so few Balinese ones on the market?

David · 2nd March 2013, 12:20 AM

Can you reference the page for that observation?
Javanese keris certainly tend to have a greater variety of pamor patterns, if that can be considered as more "complexity".

ariel · 2nd March 2013, 01:18 AM

Sure.
P. 38: "....one of the simpler forms -the Balinese blade..."

P.39: " The working of Javanese blades is far more complex".

Details of manufacturing processes follow each reference.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd March 2013, 05:06 AM

Possibly Mr.Frey had in mind the variety and complexity of pamor patterns in Javanese blades, as David has suggested, possibly he also had in mind the variety of forms (dhapur) in Javanese keris, compared to Balinese.

Balinese blades very often have a very refined execution, even though the actual form may be more simple than the Javanese. Still, Balinese blades and Javanese blades are part of the same base culture, not spinoffs from that culture as are , say, the Peninsula and Bugis keris.

Javanese keris developed along more complex lines because of the influence of Islamic metal workers along the north coast, Bali did not receive this influence, thus development in techniques and technology was slower and more limited.

Ariel,in respect of your actual question which concerns comparative numbers of recently produced blades to be found in the market place, Bali did not have a revival of keris culture in the 1970's as did Jawa. Dietrich Drescher attempted to revive interest, but it never really got off the ground. Balinese recent keris production just bounced along servicing the local demand for a long time. In "Keris Bali" a lot of modern makers are listed, but their production seems to be very limited and still seems to be focussed on local production.

In comparison, Javanese production is focussed not only on local traditional needs, but also on the art market, which is probably 99% Indonesian based. Many people in Jawa regard the Javanese keris, ie, the blade, as the highest expression of the Javanese plastic arts

In Jawa most of the modern production is from Madura. There's still a little bit coming out of Central Jawa, but because the Central Javanese makers are much fewer in number, and because they are more orientated towards traditional methods of production, they simply cannot compete with the Boys from Madura on production costs, and thus price.

David · 2nd March 2013, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Sure.
P. 38: "....one of the simpler forms -the Balinese blade..."

P.39: " The working of Javanese blades is far more complex".

Details of manufacturing processes follow each reference.

Yes Ariel, if you were to quote more than single or partial sentences here and place themin the context of his entire discussion we would see that indeed Frey is referring to the complexity of the pamor work.

ariel · 2nd March 2013, 02:09 PM

Thank you, Alan.
If I understand you correctly, Balinese masters are continuing to manufacture strictly traditional kerises and are aiming at fulfilling limited, but real, local needs, whereas the production of kerises of Javanese style became commercial in nature to the point of creating a center in Madura that is mass-producing "objects of art" and export-type kerises of whatever "Javanese-style" pattern.
That would indeed explain the difference between the availability of Balinese and Javanese kerises on the market. If so, the laws of supply and demand will inevitably stimulate the Balinese masters to follow the suit in the near future :-)

David · 2nd March 2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If I understand you correctly, Balinese masters are continuing to manufacture strictly traditional kerises and are aiming at fulfilling limited, but real, local needs, whereas the production of kerises of Javanese style became commercial in nature to the point of creating a center in Madura that is mass-producing "objects of art" and export-type kerises of whatever "Javanese-style" pattern.
That would indeed explain the difference between the availability of Balinese and Javanese kerises on the market. If so, the laws of supply and demand will inevitably stimulate the Balinese masters to follow the suit in the near future :-)

AFAIK there is very little keris production taking place in Bali. Most of the new blades that we see on the market in the West that are Bali-style are probably also being produced in Madura.
Madura, btw, is usually considered part of East Jawa, even though it is a separate island. As Alan pointed out, the art market for keris is 99% Javanese. So it is a bit off perhaps to view the production of these as "export-type" keris, though certainly a small portion of them do reach that market. The vast majority of keris produced today are for Javanese consumption. I am also not sure that it is correct to suggest that these keris are "mass-produced", at least not in our usual understanding of the term. When you preface "objects of art" with "mass-produced" i can only assume you mean to imply that these contemporary keris are somehow lesser than their antique predecessors in regards to quality and artistic achievement. The use of modern tools does not decrease the quality of these modern keris and in fact some of the technically finest and most artistic keris ever made are being produced through these methods today.

1st March 2013, 11:31 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kerises: Bali vs. Jawa etc Once again, sorry for my naivete. According to Frey's book, Jawanese kerises are incomparably more complex from the technical point of view than the Balinese ones. If so, why do we see so many modern Jawanese blades and so few Balinese ones on the market?

2nd March 2013, 12:20 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,031	Can you reference the page for that observation? Javanese keris certainly tend to have a greater variety of pamor patterns, if that can be considered as more "complexity".

2nd March 2013, 01:18 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sure. P. 38: "....one of the simpler forms -the Balinese blade..." P.39: " The working of Javanese blades is far more complex". Details of manufacturing processes follow each reference.

2nd March 2013, 05:06 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,708	Possibly Mr.Frey had in mind the variety and complexity of pamor patterns in Javanese blades, as David has suggested, possibly he also had in mind the variety of forms (dhapur) in Javanese keris, compared to Balinese. Balinese blades very often have a very refined execution, even though the actual form may be more simple than the Javanese. Still, Balinese blades and Javanese blades are part of the same base culture, not spinoffs from that culture as are , say, the Peninsula and Bugis keris. Javanese keris developed along more complex lines because of the influence of Islamic metal workers along the north coast, Bali did not receive this influence, thus development in techniques and technology was slower and more limited. Ariel,in respect of your actual question which concerns comparative numbers of recently produced blades to be found in the market place, Bali did not have a revival of keris culture in the 1970's as did Jawa. Dietrich Drescher attempted to revive interest, but it never really got off the ground. Balinese recent keris production just bounced along servicing the local demand for a long time. In "Keris Bali" a lot of modern makers are listed, but their production seems to be very limited and still seems to be focussed on local production. In comparison, Javanese production is focussed not only on local traditional needs, but also on the art market, which is probably 99% Indonesian based. Many people in Jawa regard the Javanese keris, ie, the blade, as the highest expression of the Javanese plastic arts In Jawa most of the modern production is from Madura. There's still a little bit coming out of Central Jawa, but because the Central Javanese makers are much fewer in number, and because they are more orientated towards traditional methods of production, they simply cannot compete with the Boys from Madura on production costs, and thus price.

2nd March 2013, 02:09 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thank you, Alan. If I understand you correctly, Balinese masters are continuing to manufacture strictly traditional kerises and are aiming at fulfilling limited, but real, local needs, whereas the production of kerises of Javanese style became commercial in nature to the point of creating a center in Madura that is mass-producing "objects of art" and export-type kerises of whatever "Javanese-style" pattern. That would indeed explain the difference between the availability of Balinese and Javanese kerises on the market. If so, the laws of supply and demand will inevitably stimulate the Balinese masters to follow the suit in the near future :-)