Odd or traditional selut for a Donoriko?

VVV · 28th June 2011, 09:33 AM

"Have a look at post #3 in this thread:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13989

here we have another donoriko that has been fitted with an incorrect selut, but have a look at how it has been fitted, now compare with the hilt we are discussing."

Alan's remark above on another thread (the hilt-selut combination of Sirek's keris enclosed below, pict. #1) reminded me to bring up this matter that has "disturbed" me for some time.
The first time I saw a Donoriko with this kind of hilt was at a Danish auction house several years ago and I laughed about it and believed it to be a local upgrade by a dealer or an enthusiastic collector. About a year after I saw the same combination at a dealer's shop in Paris and was a bit disturbed about it but thought that maybe two dealers had got the same idea. Some time later I saw it on eBay from a seller in Florida and this time I bought it for myself (see pict. #2).
A couple of years ago one of the Singapore or Malaysian collectors of this forum (Shahrial?) published pictures from a visit to the National Museum in KL with another example (see pict. #3). Thereafter I have seen it a few times in other collections and now on Sirek's keris in Holland too.
So when I read Alan's comment I agree in "taste". But after having seen it so many times and on keris distributed all over the world I find it hard to shrug it of as a dealer's combination.
Anybody else who has the same experience?

Michael

Jean · 28th June 2011, 11:29 AM

Hello Michael,
To me, selut specimens #2 & 3 do not seem original (they do not fit well) and they look low quality pieces from the pictures, but specimen # 1 is a different issue. Of course this is my personal and uncontrolled opinion only.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2011, 01:04 PM

Michael, in about 1984 I was introduced to a gentleman in Jogjakarta. He lived in a kampung off Jln. Wates, about 2 or 3 kilometers from the post office. He came from a very old family of m'ranggis, his forebears had all been involved in the keris trade in one way or another, and his younger brother was dealer.

I needed to be introduced to this man, because he would not deal with the public, he would only deal with or work for somebody who was recognised by one of his existing customers as a serious dealer. I was introduced by a tukang wrongko who was doing a lot of work for me, he was not a customer of this gentleman, but he knew him, because my tukang wrongko's grandfather had taught this gentleman to whom I was introduced a number of skills.

This man was making and altering keris for many years, long before Djeno and his brothers were activated again by Dietrich, however, this was something that he kept very secret, because it was worth a lot more to him as a secret that was only available to certain dealers than it was to go public.

But his skills did not stop at blade work. He was able to do anything in any metal. His embossed pendok were arguably the finest embossed pendok ever produced. Some of his work was rather kasar, especially the things that he did for the Bali trade, and for Surabaya. Surabaya is important in the keris trade, because Surabaya is the doorway for the Madura trade.

This style of selut was produced by this man in quite considerable quantities, and they were sold in both Pasar Beringhardjo in Jogja, and Pasar Turi in Surabaya.

I cannot claim that every one of this type of selut that was ever made was produced by him, but he did produce a very great number of them. I have seen many of these seluts fitted to Jogja hilts, and a very few fitted to other Javanese hilts. I was never told that it was so, but I have the gut feeling that very probably somebody in his family before him was also producing these seluts, as he had a lot of very old, imperfect ones in his stock drawers.

A favourite practice of dealers in Jawa is to try to up the bling factor of keris before offering for sale. An easy way to do this is to stick a gilded brass selut onto a hilt --- cost is minimal, bling factor is high. This is not something new, its been going on for many, many years. For as long as people who know and understand nothing about keris have been buying keris.

It does not surprise me in even the slightest degree that you have seen a number of examples of this selut spread across the world. I also have seen multiple examples of laughably incorrect keris in photographs of famous collections of both individuals and museums. I have come to realise that this incorrectness is the norm, rather than some sort of anomaly.

The gentleman who produced these selut passed away about 12 years ago. He suffered a stroke, finished up in a wheelchair and slowly withered. There wasn't all that much of him to begin with. He had two children, a son and a daughter. His daughter went to university and is a public servant. His son was bone lazy and useless and has spent his life playing with pigeons. The gentleman about whom I have written was the last of his line.

So, I guess the question is:- are selut of this type a correct and original part of Madura keris dress?

Based upon what I know, and upon what I have seen, it is my opinion that they are something intended to facilitate sale to people from outside the Madura community.

VVV · 28th June 2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...snip

So, I guess the question is:- are selut of this type a correct and original part of Madura keris dress?

Based upon what I know, and upon what I have seen, it is my opinion that they are something intended to facilitate sale to people from outside the Madura community.

Thanks Alan!

That was what I was curious about, if it was a custom for locals or not to upgrade with this kind of selut. Somehow I suspected, after being exposed to this combination all over the world, that it was somebody close to the origin who did these upgrades, and not for instance a European dealer. Probably he wasn't the only one with this idea either based on how the market functions...

Michael

PS Jean, I agree on the fitting etc. but that wasn't my aim for this thread.

sirek · 28th June 2011, 06:28 PM

Now it is clear to me why a selut with Javanese / bali influences placed on a keris from Madura.

I found it a bit strange, because most people want to keep their keris original, so why add something to it?

thanks for the explanation

asomotif · 28th June 2011, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirek

I found it a bit strange, because most people want to keep their keris original, so why add something to it?

Pfew ! with all respect for your very noble vision.
My feeling is that most western collectors want to pimp their keris to let it look like something it is not.

That the same thing is done in Indonesia does not surprise me.

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2011, 11:20 PM

Michael, from what I've seen of it, in general, European and other dealers from outside keris bearing cultures will mix anything with anything, either to make a saleable keris, or to make an existing keris easier to sell.

Within Indonesia incorrect components will also be mixed, but usually not stupidly mixed, for instance, a Madura or North Coast hilt might be put on a Solo wrongko, but most dealers I know are pretty restrained with their variations.

The danger in Indonesia, or more specifically Central Jawa, is the deliberate forgery and that generally will not affect collectors from outside Indonesia because only Indonesian collectors know sufficient and pay enough to get taken in.

The bigger danger for outside collectors is outright misrepresentation. Every single Indonesian dealer of whom I am aware, and who has sold into the western world, has indulged in misrepresentation, sometimes involving relatively heavy money, and always very obvious to somebody with a sufficient level of knowledge. On the ground in Indonesia, it can get much worse. Western collectors in Jawa are like goldfish swimming with sharks.

VVV · 29th June 2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Michael, from what I've seen of it, in general, European and other dealers from outside keris bearing cultures will mix anything with anything, either to make a saleable keris, or to make an existing keris easier to sell.
snip...

Amen to that!

Michael

VVV · 7th October 2012, 01:10 PM

I found these pictures from Leiden's exhibition at Lorenz' site and was puzzled to see the pimped selut - donoriko combination again.
But this time it is with date and provenance.
Maybe this, less kitchy, selut was the inspiration for the later "upgrades"?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 7th October 2012, 10:59 PM

In the museum section of the Mangkunegaraan in Solo there is a case with perhaps 6 or 8 of this type of dagger along with some other very fine weapons. You cannot photograph them, and you can only enter this section of the Mangkunegaraan with a guide in close attendance, I mean at your elbow the entire time. None of these daggers have hilts that look like the one in post #9, the usage shown in post #9 is neither fish nor fowl, it is a dagger type that is found in the Mangkunegaraan, but it is fitted with a Madurese keris hilt, altered to make a pleasing ensemble for a European.

The Central Javanese rulers were not above a bit of mixing and matching if they were trying to create a prestigious gift. This hilt no more belongs on a Central Javanese piece than wings belong on pigs, but the attitude was, and is:- whites don't know anything, so give them what they want, and we know they like nicely carved ivory. This hilt is a keris hilt and is incorrect for this type of dagger, but that doesn't matter:- it was prepared for a European, the objective was to please the white man, not to prepare something that was culturally correct.

The example prepared by the Mangkunegara as a gift for a European is no more an authentic Madurese usage than are the seluts of remarkably poor quality that are in the previous photos, but it is of very much higher quality. The Mangkunegara is the minor prince of Surakarta.

Attached are a couple of pics of Madura hilts with seluts. One is from a similar dagger to the one shown in post #9, one is from a pedang; one was prepared for sale pre-WWII, one was prepared for sale in the 1970's; both came from the same source. Both were fitted to the weapons in Central Jawa, specifically for sale to tourists.

Mixing and matching was not limited to shonks working out of Central Javanese markets, nor to forgers in Singapore and Jakarta, nor to UK arms dealers in Birmingham. It was and is very widespread.

VVV · 8th October 2012, 06:59 AM

Yes, it is obvious that the keris hilt does not belong to the dagger either.
But what puzzled me with this case is that these kind of selut upgrades seems to have been around for a century longer than earlier discussed.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2012, 08:17 AM

I guess it just demonstrates how incredibly clever Javanese people are:- takes them almost no time at all to learn what makes a bule jump through the hoops.

But seriously, the entire concept of "mix and match" is one of the major elements of Javanese culture. The essential nature of both culture and society has been the willingness to select individual elements of anything and combine those elements to form something new. Another defining feature of the Javanese people is that they will almost invariably provide an outsider with what they believe he wants to see and hear.

Seluts have been around for a long time, and they are an easy and a popular way to provide a bit of bling but there is no way that we can consider the gift of the Mangkunegara in the same light as the rubbish that we can see in these other seluts. Personally, I don't find anything about this gift dagger strange at all:- it is something that was prepared specifically to please the boss.

satsujinken · 8th October 2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Another defining feature of the Javanese people is that they will almost invariably provide an outsider with what they believe he wants to see and hear.

you describe this one in a very precise word !! I salute you

this is also an eye opener for "bule" or "white man" who tried to delve in world of Javanese keris ...

Javanese will smile at you, will serve you, will show you something they think you might like, but hiding the essentials ...

and I surely believed that you spoke that out based on your own experience ... isn't it right ??

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2012, 12:47 PM

I do have a little bit of experience of Jawa, Donny.

Gustav · 8th October 2012, 06:29 PM

In "Court Arts of Indonesia" on page 163 there is another almost similar dagger (to the one in #9) with Madurese hilt (without selut). The description says:

"The kris was put together around 1880 and belonged to one of the daughters of Pakubuwono IX."

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2012, 10:46 PM

Yes, possibly it did Gustav, in much the same manner that various keris and tombak & etc that I have seen over the years belonged to various people with royal associations. Selling odds and ends, including weaponry, with a royal provenance has been a good way to raise funds for a long time. Perhaps the most famous example of hoodwinkery applied to the eyes of a bule --- or in this case a whole collection of gullible bules --- is the Knaud Keris. This had royal provenance too. Supposedly. My apologies to all:- I'm a skeptic.

Or maybe one of girls decided it looked nicer than the plain old hilts that were normally fitted. Bear in mind the very close ties between Surakarta and Sumenep, and the fact that we're talking about a daughter.

Fact of the matter is that if we look hard enough we can find all sorts of strange variation, not only in weaponry, but in just about everything else to do with Jawa. Ivory Madura hilts are nice, and its easy to understand why somebody would want to fit one to something else, but where we have a specific type of artifact, with an established form, such as is the case with the Mangkunegaraan daggers and with this miniaturised pedang suduk form, a variation from that form, no matter who it is may be associated with, is an anomaly.

I'm not necessarily saying that such an anomaly is a bad thing, and where we are talking about a minor item of dress, or something for an ornament or that has been created in accordance with a personal whim, or for a specific reason --- such as to please a GG --- we do have an example of anomaly, and such anomaly should not be interpreted as an example of a legitimate form. Because it is not.

And as for those seluts --- enough said.

Here's the Surakarta dagger in Court Arts.

7th October 2012, 10:59 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	In the museum section of the Mangkunegaraan in Solo there is a case with perhaps 6 or 8 of this type of dagger along with some other very fine weapons. You cannot photograph them, and you can only enter this section of the Mangkunegaraan with a guide in close attendance, I mean at your elbow the entire time. None of these daggers have hilts that look like the one in post #9, the usage shown in post #9 is neither fish nor fowl, it is a dagger type that is found in the Mangkunegaraan, but it is fitted with a Madurese keris hilt, altered to make a pleasing ensemble for a European. The Central Javanese rulers were not above a bit of mixing and matching if they were trying to create a prestigious gift. This hilt no more belongs on a Central Javanese piece than wings belong on pigs, but the attitude was, and is:- whites don't know anything, so give them what they want, and we know they like nicely carved ivory. This hilt is a keris hilt and is incorrect for this type of dagger, but that doesn't matter:- it was prepared for a European, the objective was to please the white man, not to prepare something that was culturally correct. The example prepared by the Mangkunegara as a gift for a European is no more an authentic Madurese usage than are the seluts of remarkably poor quality that are in the previous photos, but it is of very much higher quality. The Mangkunegara is the minor prince of Surakarta. Attached are a couple of pics of Madura hilts with seluts. One is from a similar dagger to the one shown in post #9, one is from a pedang; one was prepared for sale pre-WWII, one was prepared for sale in the 1970's; both came from the same source. Both were fitted to the weapons in Central Jawa, specifically for sale to tourists. Mixing and matching was not limited to shonks working out of Central Javanese markets, nor to forgers in Singapore and Jakarta, nor to UK arms dealers in Birmingham. It was and is very widespread. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 7th October 2012 at 11:35 PM.

8th October 2012, 10:46 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Yes, possibly it did Gustav, in much the same manner that various keris and tombak & etc that I have seen over the years belonged to various people with royal associations. Selling odds and ends, including weaponry, with a royal provenance has been a good way to raise funds for a long time. Perhaps the most famous example of hoodwinkery applied to the eyes of a bule --- or in this case a whole collection of gullible bules --- is the Knaud Keris. This had royal provenance too. Supposedly. My apologies to all:- I'm a skeptic. Or maybe one of girls decided it looked nicer than the plain old hilts that were normally fitted. Bear in mind the very close ties between Surakarta and Sumenep, and the fact that we're talking about a daughter. Fact of the matter is that if we look hard enough we can find all sorts of strange variation, not only in weaponry, but in just about everything else to do with Jawa. Ivory Madura hilts are nice, and its easy to understand why somebody would want to fit one to something else, but where we have a specific type of artifact, with an established form, such as is the case with the Mangkunegaraan daggers and with this miniaturised pedang suduk form, a variation from that form, no matter who it is may be associated with, is an anomaly. I'm not necessarily saying that such an anomaly is a bad thing, and where we are talking about a minor item of dress, or something for an ornament or that has been created in accordance with a personal whim, or for a specific reason --- such as to please a GG --- we do have an example of anomaly, and such anomaly should not be interpreted as an example of a legitimate form. Because it is not. And as for those seluts --- enough said. Here's the Surakarta dagger in Court Arts. Attached Images

28th June 2011, 09:33 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Odd or traditional selut for a Donoriko? "Have a look at post #3 in this thread:- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13989 here we have another donoriko that has been fitted with an incorrect selut, but have a look at how it has been fitted, now compare with the hilt we are discussing." Alan's remark above on another thread (the hilt-selut combination of Sirek's keris enclosed below, pict. #1) reminded me to bring up this matter that has "disturbed" me for some time. The first time I saw a Donoriko with this kind of hilt was at a Danish auction house several years ago and I laughed about it and believed it to be a local upgrade by a dealer or an enthusiastic collector. About a year after I saw the same combination at a dealer's shop in Paris and was a bit disturbed about it but thought that maybe two dealers had got the same idea. Some time later I saw it on eBay from a seller in Florida and this time I bought it for myself (see pict. #2). A couple of years ago one of the Singapore or Malaysian collectors of this forum (Shahrial?) published pictures from a visit to the National Museum in KL with another example (see pict. #3). Thereafter I have seen it a few times in other collections and now on Sirek's keris in Holland too. So when I read Alan's comment I agree in "taste". But after having seen it so many times and on keris distributed all over the world I find it hard to shrug it of as a dealer's combination. Anybody else who has the same experience? Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 28th June 2011 at 10:03 AM. Reason: language

28th June 2011, 11:29 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Michael, To me, selut specimens #2 & 3 do not seem original (they do not fit well) and they look low quality pieces from the pictures, but specimen # 1 is a different issue. Of course this is my personal and uncontrolled opinion only. Best regards Jean

28th June 2011, 01:04 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Michael, in about 1984 I was introduced to a gentleman in Jogjakarta. He lived in a kampung off Jln. Wates, about 2 or 3 kilometers from the post office. He came from a very old family of m'ranggis, his forebears had all been involved in the keris trade in one way or another, and his younger brother was dealer. I needed to be introduced to this man, because he would not deal with the public, he would only deal with or work for somebody who was recognised by one of his existing customers as a serious dealer. I was introduced by a tukang wrongko who was doing a lot of work for me, he was not a customer of this gentleman, but he knew him, because my tukang wrongko's grandfather had taught this gentleman to whom I was introduced a number of skills. This man was making and altering keris for many years, long before Djeno and his brothers were activated again by Dietrich, however, this was something that he kept very secret, because it was worth a lot more to him as a secret that was only available to certain dealers than it was to go public. But his skills did not stop at blade work. He was able to do anything in any metal. His embossed pendok were arguably the finest embossed pendok ever produced. Some of his work was rather kasar, especially the things that he did for the Bali trade, and for Surabaya. Surabaya is important in the keris trade, because Surabaya is the doorway for the Madura trade. This style of selut was produced by this man in quite considerable quantities, and they were sold in both Pasar Beringhardjo in Jogja, and Pasar Turi in Surabaya. I cannot claim that every one of this type of selut that was ever made was produced by him, but he did produce a very great number of them. I have seen many of these seluts fitted to Jogja hilts, and a very few fitted to other Javanese hilts. I was never told that it was so, but I have the gut feeling that very probably somebody in his family before him was also producing these seluts, as he had a lot of very old, imperfect ones in his stock drawers. A favourite practice of dealers in Jawa is to try to up the bling factor of keris before offering for sale. An easy way to do this is to stick a gilded brass selut onto a hilt --- cost is minimal, bling factor is high. This is not something new, its been going on for many, many years. For as long as people who know and understand nothing about keris have been buying keris. It does not surprise me in even the slightest degree that you have seen a number of examples of this selut spread across the world. I also have seen multiple examples of laughably incorrect keris in photographs of famous collections of both individuals and museums. I have come to realise that this incorrectness is the norm, rather than some sort of anomaly. The gentleman who produced these selut passed away about 12 years ago. He suffered a stroke, finished up in a wheelchair and slowly withered. There wasn't all that much of him to begin with. He had two children, a son and a daughter. His daughter went to university and is a public servant. His son was bone lazy and useless and has spent his life playing with pigeons. The gentleman about whom I have written was the last of his line. So, I guess the question is:- are selut of this type a correct and original part of Madura keris dress? Based upon what I know, and upon what I have seen, it is my opinion that they are something intended to facilitate sale to people from outside the Madura community.

28th June 2011, 06:28 PM	#5
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 165	Now it is clear to me why a selut with Javanese / bali influences placed on a keris from Madura. I found it a bit strange, because most people want to keep their keris original, so why add something to it? thanks for the explanation

28th June 2011, 11:20 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Michael, from what I've seen of it, in general, European and other dealers from outside keris bearing cultures will mix anything with anything, either to make a saleable keris, or to make an existing keris easier to sell. Within Indonesia incorrect components will also be mixed, but usually not stupidly mixed, for instance, a Madura or North Coast hilt might be put on a Solo wrongko, but most dealers I know are pretty restrained with their variations. The danger in Indonesia, or more specifically Central Jawa, is the deliberate forgery and that generally will not affect collectors from outside Indonesia because only Indonesian collectors know sufficient and pay enough to get taken in. The bigger danger for outside collectors is outright misrepresentation. Every single Indonesian dealer of whom I am aware, and who has sold into the western world, has indulged in misrepresentation, sometimes involving relatively heavy money, and always very obvious to somebody with a sufficient level of knowledge. On the ground in Indonesia, it can get much worse. Western collectors in Jawa are like goldfish swimming with sharks.

7th October 2012, 01:10 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I found these pictures from Leiden's exhibition at Lorenz' site and was puzzled to see the pimped selut - donoriko combination again. But this time it is with date and provenance. Maybe this, less kitchy, selut was the inspiration for the later "upgrades"? Michael Attached Images

8th October 2012, 06:59 AM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, it is obvious that the keris hilt does not belong to the dagger either. But what puzzled me with this case is that these kind of selut upgrades seems to have been around for a century longer than earlier discussed. Michael

8th October 2012, 08:17 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I guess it just demonstrates how incredibly clever Javanese people are:- takes them almost no time at all to learn what makes a bule jump through the hoops. But seriously, the entire concept of "mix and match" is one of the major elements of Javanese culture. The essential nature of both culture and society has been the willingness to select individual elements of anything and combine those elements to form something new. Another defining feature of the Javanese people is that they will almost invariably provide an outsider with what they believe he wants to see and hear. Seluts have been around for a long time, and they are an easy and a popular way to provide a bit of bling but there is no way that we can consider the gift of the Mangkunegara in the same light as the rubbish that we can see in these other seluts. Personally, I don't find anything about this gift dagger strange at all:- it is something that was prepared specifically to please the boss.

8th October 2012, 12:47 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I do have a little bit of experience of Jawa, Donny.

8th October 2012, 06:29 PM	#15
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	In "Court Arts of Indonesia" on page 163 there is another almost similar dagger (to the one in #9) with Madurese hilt (without selut). The description says: "The kris was put together around 1880 and belonged to one of the daughters of Pakubuwono IX."