A 16thC Dha Reference?

B.I · 11th August 2005, 09:27 PM

this is a little loose, but interesting all the same.
my current study has led me to the extensive letters of an english trader in the late 16thC, who spent much time in india and the middle east. ralph fitch's travels were very extensive and impressive, as were the many notes he left behind. mostly related to trade (spices) he does touch on descriptions of places and people now and then, and my choice of his works was one of pure hope, as he hasnt been touched by any noted arms academics.

whilst describing the king of pegu (around 1586), he says -

the chief force of the king is in the elephants, and when they go into the wars they set a frame of wood upon their backs, bound with great cords, wherin sit 4 or 6 men, which fight with guns, bows and arrows, darts and other weapons. and they say that their skins are so thick that a pellet of an harquebus will scarce pierce them, except it be in some tender place. their weapons be very bad. they have guns, but shoot nery badly in them; darts and swords, short without points.

the author (that compiled his letters) offers a footnote to this sword reference -

the dha, the national weapon of burma and all these coasts. the true kachin dha is about 18 inches long, broad and square at the tip, narrow at the haft and sharpened only on one edge. it is a tool-of-all-work as well as a weapon and a symbol; venerated - by all kachins, at all events - as the japanese once venerated their swords, it is central in many ceremonies, is used to stir wine in which an oath is pledged and is buried to mark the conclusion of a feud. everywhere south of bhamo the pointed dha of the shans has become nowadays more fashionable than the square-ended form.

now the 16thc mention is but a 'sword' and the details given was written in the early 20thC. however, the author does cross reference all the early publications of these accounts (1589,1598 and 1625) and he says
' the results of these comparisons will be found in the notes'
from his other notes, it seems that much additional detail was known, other than that given in the actual letter. i believe that finch was alive during these first published accounts, although he seems to have disappeared from history at some point, most likely on another adventure.

interesting stuff.

Andrew · 12th August 2005, 02:09 AM

Outstanding, Brian! Thank you for bringing this forward.

I agree the period reference does sound like a square-tipped kachin dha. I feel confident (through art research) that 16th century Siam saw dha use, but this is the only primary source I've personally heard of regarding Burmese dha from that period.

Are these letters published?

Best,
Andrew

B.I · 12th August 2005, 06:55 PM

hi andrew,
the letters and accounts were published in 1930 by j.courtenay locke.
i finished reading it last night and enjoyed it. i loved victorian english for their eloquence and politeness, which i find almost musical.
16thC english is quite matter of fact and abrupt (almost). maybe because these were letters and they were trying to get as much information in as little space as possible.
unfortunately there was very little real information useful for me (and swords collectors in general). i skimmed a lot of the letters in areas of less interest to me so i amy have missed something but i dont think so. the best reference i found was the one i posted.
it does paint a good picture of the trade routes and i think they were much wider than most people think. each trading post is filled with most 'popular' cultures of the time, whether eastern or western.
siam gets a colourful description and the king is very 'yul brynner'.
the footnote is interesting, especially the burying of dha to appease feuds. we can imagine many feuds since the 16thC so i suggest a metal detector and a quick flight!
i believe the book has been reprinted in india, which is normally quite cheap. dont get your hopes up though, as it covers 4 or 5 travellers and the whole of the east, with much attention spent on politeness and spices.
i have an original copy which i am done with. if you pay the postage, i'll happily donate it to a worthier cause.

Mark · 12th August 2005, 09:12 PM

Good stuff! I have read excerpts of Fitch's journal in a couple books, but I only just scored (today) a copy of the full work. I hope that it arrives soon. I don't know if it is the edition you mention -- the footnotes seem interesting in yours.

I also have come across extracts of the travel journal of a Portuese from the same period (his name escapes me, but I'll add it later when I have my notebook at hand [LATER: Sebastien Manrique, who travelled in Arrakan between 1630 and 1635, and so was not really a contemporary of Fytche after all]), and he describes a procession during a royal coronation in Arakan in which there were several squadrons of cavalry of various nationalities, some of which carried "swords," and others of which carried "sabers" (these last were Mogul mercenaries). The Burmese were described as carrying spears, but not swords, which I found very interesting. It might have been due to the fact that they were horsemen, not infantry. [Arakan is on the coast on the west side of the Malay penninsula, and is now part of Myanmar. It was usually dominated to varying degrees by the Burmese Empire -- this guy happened to visit during one of the periods of independence]

The dha is indeed central to Kachin life. It is even used as a ritual medium of debt payment, and is in those cases often not even a functional dha or full size. It is the idea of the value of the dha that drives the transaction. They are also stuck up in the rafters of a house near the household shrine (sometimes in miniature form). A stair of swords, edge up (actually wood, apparently) was at least at one time used during the initation of monks in Burma.

LATER: There are excerpts from a number of European traveller's journals in a book called "Old Burma, as described by Early Foreign Travellers" by U Myo Min (Hanthawaddy Pub., 1947). This is where I read Manrique's account, and a bit of Fytche.

With all this information about how important the dha was, I find it really odd and frustrating that there are not more references to them, and more descriptions of the darn things, or depictions in art. Aggrevating.

B.I · 13th August 2005, 07:12 PM

hi mark,
i really look forward to hearing more details of his travels. from what i read, it seemed even a casual mention is of great importance, as it is a period of very little information. these early travellers were essential in our knowledge of early cultures. it is more from them, than from the actual peoples that information will be found, as they were outsiders and anything 'strange' would have been fully described (you'd hope).
i have never understood the exclusion of weapons we knew existed in iconograpgy, whether painting or scuplture. the same goes for koras in nepal etc.
according to some outspoken opinions, without this 'photographic' evidence, your dha cant have existed anyway, so maybe there are a figment of your imagination

the book i read included other travellers of the same period, all english. i do have the name of a portuguese traveller that left records at the same period. i have yet to chase this down, but i wonder if he is the same guy you mention. i hope there is more to finch than i have read, as he sounds a fascinating man. he travelled more in the 16thC, than the majority do now. from what i read of his and others accounts, i am not surprised of the influences that spread over such wide expanses. each port was filled with portuguese, moors, english, french as well as all parts of the east. trade was flourishing and almost the mainstay of income for many countries.
do examples of 16th/17thC dha exist?

Mark · 15th August 2005, 02:37 AM

bump ... I added the guy's name, etc. to my earlier post ...

Andrew · 15th August 2005, 04:38 AM

Brian, I'll gleefully accept your generous offer!

I'll send you an email to iron out the details.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

do examples of 16th/17thC dha exist?

I think so. I'm confident this sword (and a very similar one owned by Mark) are Ayutthaya period Siam (14th - 18th c.). I'm traveling and my internet connection is spotty. When I return, I'll try to dig up the powerpoint presentation I put together on this sword for Timonium, 2004. (For those that have seen this many times before, I apologize

).

Mark · 15th August 2005, 03:31 PM

This is my Ayutthaya-era dha. The Ayutthaya Period ran from 1350 to 1767, but we are pretty sure that these are from the mid-Ayutthaya Period, i.e., 16th-early 17th C. AD at the oldest. I say 18th C. on my website, but we've since gotten information from one of the early owners of the blades that pushes the date further back.

The whole page on it is here.

11th August 2005, 09:27 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	A 16thC Dha Reference? this is a little loose, but interesting all the same. my current study has led me to the extensive letters of an english trader in the late 16thC, who spent much time in india and the middle east. ralph fitch's travels were very extensive and impressive, as were the many notes he left behind. mostly related to trade (spices) he does touch on descriptions of places and people now and then, and my choice of his works was one of pure hope, as he hasnt been touched by any noted arms academics. whilst describing the king of pegu (around 1586), he says - the chief force of the king is in the elephants, and when they go into the wars they set a frame of wood upon their backs, bound with great cords, wherin sit 4 or 6 men, which fight with guns, bows and arrows, darts and other weapons. and they say that their skins are so thick that a pellet of an harquebus will scarce pierce them, except it be in some tender place. their weapons be very bad. they have guns, but shoot nery badly in them; darts and swords, short without points. the author (that compiled his letters) offers a footnote to this sword reference - the dha, the national weapon of burma and all these coasts. the true kachin dha is about 18 inches long, broad and square at the tip, narrow at the haft and sharpened only on one edge. it is a tool-of-all-work as well as a weapon and a symbol; venerated - by all kachins, at all events - as the japanese once venerated their swords, it is central in many ceremonies, is used to stir wine in which an oath is pledged and is buried to mark the conclusion of a feud. everywhere south of bhamo the pointed dha of the shans has become nowadays more fashionable than the square-ended form. now the 16thc mention is but a 'sword' and the details given was written in the early 20thC. however, the author does cross reference all the early publications of these accounts (1589,1598 and 1625) and he says ' the results of these comparisons will be found in the notes' from his other notes, it seems that much additional detail was known, other than that given in the actual letter. i believe that finch was alive during these first published accounts, although he seems to have disappeared from history at some point, most likely on another adventure. interesting stuff.

12th August 2005, 02:09 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Outstanding, Brian! Thank you for bringing this forward. I agree the period reference does sound like a square-tipped kachin dha. I feel confident (through art research) that 16th century Siam saw dha use, but this is the only primary source I've personally heard of regarding Burmese dha from that period. Are these letters published? Best, Andrew Last edited by Andrew; 12th August 2005 at 04:35 AM.

12th August 2005, 09:12 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Good stuff! I have read excerpts of Fitch's journal in a couple books, but I only just scored (today) a copy of the full work. I hope that it arrives soon. I don't know if it is the edition you mention -- the footnotes seem interesting in yours. I also have come across extracts of the travel journal of a Portuese from the same period (his name escapes me, but I'll add it later when I have my notebook at hand [LATER: Sebastien Manrique, who travelled in Arrakan between 1630 and 1635, and so was not really a contemporary of Fytche after all]), and he describes a procession during a royal coronation in Arakan in which there were several squadrons of cavalry of various nationalities, some of which carried "swords," and others of which carried "sabers" (these last were Mogul mercenaries). The Burmese were described as carrying spears, but not swords, which I found very interesting. It might have been due to the fact that they were horsemen, not infantry. [Arakan is on the coast on the west side of the Malay penninsula, and is now part of Myanmar. It was usually dominated to varying degrees by the Burmese Empire -- this guy happened to visit during one of the periods of independence] The dha is indeed central to Kachin life. It is even used as a ritual medium of debt payment, and is in those cases often not even a functional dha or full size. It is the idea of the value of the dha that drives the transaction. They are also stuck up in the rafters of a house near the household shrine (sometimes in miniature form). A stair of swords, edge up (actually wood, apparently) was at least at one time used during the initation of monks in Burma. LATER: There are excerpts from a number of European traveller's journals in a book called "Old Burma, as described by Early Foreign Travellers" by U Myo Min (Hanthawaddy Pub., 1947). This is where I read Manrique's account, and a bit of Fytche. With all this information about how important the dha was, I find it really odd and frustrating that there are not more references to them, and more descriptions of the darn things, or depictions in art. Aggrevating. Last edited by Mark Bowditch; 15th August 2005 at 02:36 AM. Reason: adding more information ....

12th August 2005, 06:55 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi andrew, the letters and accounts were published in 1930 by j.courtenay locke. i finished reading it last night and enjoyed it. i loved victorian english for their eloquence and politeness, which i find almost musical. 16thC english is quite matter of fact and abrupt (almost). maybe because these were letters and they were trying to get as much information in as little space as possible. unfortunately there was very little real information useful for me (and swords collectors in general). i skimmed a lot of the letters in areas of less interest to me so i amy have missed something but i dont think so. the best reference i found was the one i posted. it does paint a good picture of the trade routes and i think they were much wider than most people think. each trading post is filled with most 'popular' cultures of the time, whether eastern or western. siam gets a colourful description and the king is very 'yul brynner'. the footnote is interesting, especially the burying of dha to appease feuds. we can imagine many feuds since the 16thC so i suggest a metal detector and a quick flight! i believe the book has been reprinted in india, which is normally quite cheap. dont get your hopes up though, as it covers 4 or 5 travellers and the whole of the east, with much attention spent on politeness and spices. i have an original copy which i am done with. if you pay the postage, i'll happily donate it to a worthier cause.

13th August 2005, 07:12 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi mark, i really look forward to hearing more details of his travels. from what i read, it seemed even a casual mention is of great importance, as it is a period of very little information. these early travellers were essential in our knowledge of early cultures. it is more from them, than from the actual peoples that information will be found, as they were outsiders and anything 'strange' would have been fully described (you'd hope). i have never understood the exclusion of weapons we knew existed in iconograpgy, whether painting or scuplture. the same goes for koras in nepal etc. according to some outspoken opinions, without this 'photographic' evidence, your dha cant have existed anyway, so maybe there are a figment of your imagination the book i read included other travellers of the same period, all english. i do have the name of a portuguese traveller that left records at the same period. i have yet to chase this down, but i wonder if he is the same guy you mention. i hope there is more to finch than i have read, as he sounds a fascinating man. he travelled more in the 16thC, than the majority do now. from what i read of his and others accounts, i am not surprised of the influences that spread over such wide expanses. each port was filled with portuguese, moors, english, french as well as all parts of the east. trade was flourishing and almost the mainstay of income for many countries. do examples of 16th/17thC dha exist?

15th August 2005, 02:37 AM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	bump ... I added the guy's name, etc. to my earlier post ...

15th August 2005, 03:31 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	This is my Ayutthaya-era dha. The Ayutthaya Period ran from 1350 to 1767, but we are pretty sure that these are from the mid-Ayutthaya Period, i.e., 16th-early 17th C. AD at the oldest. I say 18th C. on my website, but we've since gotten information from one of the early owners of the blades that pushes the date further back. The whole page on it is here.