Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd November 2008, 07:41 PM   #1
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default Walloon sword for coments

This piece is on its way to my little collection.
Said to be German, dated around 1700.
Blade length 91, 5 cms
Width 38 mm
There are some numbers and letters marked on the pommel - LCR N118 - said to be regimental markings.
I would like to know your opinnion on this sword, namely on its age, country of origin and, if possible, an idea of the markings provenance.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Fernando

.
Attached Images
       
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2008, 12:33 AM   #2
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Very, very nice Fernando!!
These very businesslike military swords have always been most appealing to me, and I was always intrigued by the curious term for them. According to Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", pp.156,157) these bilobate counterguard horsemans swords seem to have originated in the Low Countries around the first part of the 17th century, and gained popularity across Europe. The term 'walloon' refers to the people of Wallonia (fr.=wall), which is a region in Belgium, and it seems likely became colloquially used , probably by the French, for this type of sword.
In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.372) there is an Austrian cavalry example nearly identical to yours, shown as the beginning of the 18th century. I cannot recall offhand the case with the prominant screws holding the elements of the guard to the pommel, but this seems also a very early feature, and the rebated, rounded point of the blade is most interesting. It seems these type blades are seen on German swords of this period.
I am not sure on the markings, and they same inscribed later, on the pommel seems unusual.

All best regards,
Jim

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th November 2008 at 01:41 AM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2008, 04:12 AM   #3
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

Awesome sword, Fernando! (green with envy, green with envy! _Did I think that aloud!). The rounded tip is just like that found on one of my swords (the Spanish bilbo). I had assumed the tip had broke & been reshaped or that it had lost its point from over-sharpening.

Jim, did I understand you correctly that some of the older swords with slightly rounded points were a common pattern in German swords? As said above, I've seen this in some Spanish pieces as well (probably imported blades, I imagine?). thanks,
Mark
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2008, 06:52 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Hi Mark,
I wouldnt say it was particularly common, but I have seen this rounded tip feature on a number of German 17th century blades, one with Spanish markings mounted on a Scottish baskethilt mounted c.1680. I have seen the same tip on German blades with Spanish markings found on Hungarian sword of same period. To me it has always seem interesting that the blades on Omani kattara are invariably with rounded point, as are Tuareg takoubas, both known for receiving German trade broadsword blades.

It would be interesting to check on resources to see how many instances do reveal this rounded tip, and how often they occur on German trade blades.

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2008, 12:24 AM   #5
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Darn It! Your walloon is prettier than mine...











QUOTE=fernando]This piece is on its way to my little collection.
Said to be German, dated around 1700.
Blade length 91, 5 cms
Width 38 mm
There are some numbers and letters marked on the pommel - LCR N118 - said to be regimental markings.
I would like to know your opinnion on this sword, namely on its age, country of origin and, if possible, an idea of the markings provenance.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Fernando
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th November 2008, 08:20 PM   #6
Paul Macdonald
Member
 
Paul Macdonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posts: 48
Default

Hi Folks,

The Walloon is very similar to one that I have recently restored. It forms part of the armoury collection of Kelly Castle in Scotland, which I have for restoration at the moment.



Paul Macdonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th November 2008, 08:40 PM   #7
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Congratulations Fernando!!!
What a lovely example, I've always wanted one of these! I am very envious, I don't think you could have hoped to find a better one.

Manuel!

Extremely fine sword there as well!

*sigh*

So many beautiful swords in the world that I don't own!
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2011, 12:33 AM   #8
Carl M
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20
Default

Very nice swords!

I recently purchased this:
Attached Images
   

Last edited by fernando; 11th July 2011 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Pictures direct upload
Carl M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2011, 07:26 AM   #9
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

Very nice sword, Carl! I particularly like the grotesque staring face on the guard. Is this reminescent of the so-called mourning swords portraying the "death's Head" of King Louis? These types date to the English Civil War period, contemporary with your walloon. Great find!!
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.