Need help with identifying Moroccan Koummya

[RobT]

Hi All,

Based on the nature of baldric rings and lugs, I would go with well post WWII for this piece. I have found that the older the piece, the larger and more sturdy the lugs and rings. The lugs on this piece look far too fragile to stand up to daily wear in 19th century Morocco. I have also never seen what I consider a 19th century koummya with the rings riveted to the lugs. I think this is a well made newer piece. The blade is well done.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Really Rob? See the pics from two pieces shown in "the Small Catalog of Moroccan an Algerian Edged Weapons" and their dating from Eric.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

Based on the nature of baldric rings and lugs, I would go with well post WWII for this piece. I have found that the older the piece, the larger and more sturdy the lugs and rings. The lugs on this piece look far too fragile to stand up to daily wear in 19th century Morocco. I have also never seen what I consider a 19th century koummya with the rings riveted to the lugs. I think this is a well made newer piece. The blade is well done.

Hello Rob,

I don't know which one you mean but other people have different opinions regarding the riveted baldric rings. See the previous post.

Regards,
Detlef

[RobT]

Sajen,

I said that, “I have also never seen what I consider a 19th century koummya with the rings riveted to the lugs.” In the chapeau de gendarme text below the picture, Eric Claude dates his example to the early 20th century. His is a truly beautiful example with both a superb blade, hilt, and sheath. Frankly, I don’t own (nor have I ever seen) a koummya with riveted rings as old or as finely wrought as Eric Claude’s example so I can readily believe that it was made in the early 20th century when daily carry (necessitating heavy lugs) was going out of fashion in some areas but the wish for a quality side arm for social occasions remained.
As for the second example, whatever the stamp on the sheath may say, may not be true. Certainly, the blade and hilt aren’t as finely made as the first example and one would think that the blade from that time period would be more substantial. Anyone, for any reason may add a date. I have seen a number of Philippine style bowies that were dated 1945 but, considering the quality of workmanship, I have considered doubtful.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Hello Rob,

Like I stated before, I am really not an expert when it comes to koummyas. I've handled some very nice and clearly very old/antique examples and all these examples had loops instead of rivets like the example in question or the one I posted, these loops were partly extremely worn, a few so much that it was worn through or the metal really thin already. Clearly from long time use and over a long time daily worn.
But I think that the riveted version never worked for daily use, I think that they like I stated before are pure presentation daggers, given as presents to visitors who rarely will wear such a dagger or in the case it was the dagger of a Moroccan, only by special events.
On the other hand, with such a koummya in hand, I can assure you that these riveted rings seem much stronger to my eyes than I thought!
And Eric stated the early 20th century, which is antique without doubt.

Regards,
Detlef

[Marc M.]

Greetings

One of my koummiya's, hanzer type. Silver, bone and a good blade, with 4 silver marks on the sheath and 2 on the handle. Once found on the forum: Marrakech 1300 (1882) fleur à 4 pétales.
I had no idea that the manner in which the rings are attached to the lugs was an indication of age.
Regards
Marc

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marc M.

I had no idea that the manner in which the rings are attached to the lugs was an indication of age.

I think it isn't an indication of age, see here also: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html

[Sajen]

Another very informative thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=koummya