Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 4th May 2009, 12:27 AM   #31
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,675
Default

What a beautiful question Jussi!

But I am not going post a single response or comment in respect of this question.

You know, it may be quite educational to invite comments from our members who are of one Asian cultural heritage or another in respect of their perspective of western cultures. This could possibly tell you more about what you would like to know than direct responses to your original question will tell you.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th May 2009, 09:12 PM   #32
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Smile

Jussi,
Have you read Visible and Invisible Realms by Weiner ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th May 2009, 10:05 PM   #33
Jussi M.
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Jussi,
Have you read Visible and Invisible Realms by Weiner ?
No, but I have a vision I soon will

Thanks Rick, much appreciated!

J.
Jussi M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2009, 02:23 PM   #34
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

I must strongly second the Weiner book. Of course this book deals with Bali, not Jawa, but i think it will open up a few avenues of thought for you Jussi.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 07:51 PM   #35
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 367
Default

This will not answer the questions in this thread, just my 0.2 cents and I won’t be able to defense a lot of this. Most likely I am blinded by my own culture’s view on keris.

I think, the keris before Islam started out as a weapon and then evolved into an object with dual function which is a weapon and a symbol to god’s permission to somebody to have something i.e. power, safety etc.

Since it is still a weapon, it would meant differently to different groups. This probably why the keris is referred to using a lot of different names in the old manuscripts as Alan had pointed out in previous threads. To a king it may be first and foremost a symbol; a source of power (power to rule)– like the legislation if you like, but to “Leroy Brown” (not the athlete), it is just a weapon that he purchased from the market. So, the difference is probably the rituals in the making and who makes the keris. What sort of rituals at that time, I have no idea.

It is not similar to the Christian’s cross as the keris is not a general symbol and to a certain extent it is kind of being “worshipped” in order to maintain the permission that had been granted. However, the source of power not necessarily be the keris. And hence sajen’s are not unique to the keris- it can also be an offering to the guardian of the sea if the “source of power” is from there. Meaning that the keris can serve and symbolises different “permissions” as well. To differentiate the purpose of a keris, different dhapurs are introduced with different rituals and of course, different shapes. It is these “permissions” that were later being passed on as Pusakas.

I don’t know if the current rituals exists in Hindu times, but from what I can see, the rituals such as giving sajen like incense, using specific colors and all that are closely related to Hinduism. When Islam came Hinduisme is absorbed into the culture which then are considered as mysticism.

As court culture spreads, the concept of “permission” is being used by the general public as well with the addition of some other beliefs that came from a lot of people. (This is probably where the sheer amount of mysticism –flying keris and such; were added to the keris) and perhaps by this time Islam is widespread the permission concept evolves into the concept of tuah.

Apart from the amount of costs that can be put into a making of a keris, the tuah concepts also contributes to its increased value and when money kicks in, all sort of “valued added” qualities were added to increase the price and everything needs to be re-examined to evaluate quality.

The problem is to put a timeline of the above.
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2019, 11:14 AM   #36
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,599
Default

Interesting thread. Especially Jussi M remarks. While I understand that each cultures have underlying common denominators. That point to a "hardwire" basic beliefs that are common.

I am most interested in the underlying spiritual aspects in humankind. It can be confusing seeing the "jumble".

Perhaps there are corollaries between a keris and a crucifix, but go deeper from a wider perspective. Try to go beyond the words, the chalk, the blackboard - and to the underlying syncretism of the concepts.

You may look at a voodoo altar. Often there are many Catholic objects, saints, incense, items 'borrowed' from Catholicism because there are underlying aspects that can be very similar if you dig deeper.

You may not understand a Chinese concept of Chinese Heaven, unless you are Chinese, but they have a 'Heaven'. All humans are hardwired into their concept of "heaven".

There are a few subjects that merit digging deeper.

Spirituality
Philosophy
Sex
Oil
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.