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Old 19th December 2014, 02:56 PM   #1
Morten
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Default Suhl Wheellock carbin

I have a Suhl Wheellock carbin, and I wonder if someone can help me with some information about this. When I bought it, it was informed that it was produced around 1630, but it is marked 1592 on the top of the barrel. The stock has a lot of inlays, I guess this is done later. The barrel har some Suhl markings, and the inside of the lock is marked FR over a wheel or something.
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Old 20th December 2014, 11:05 AM   #2
fernando
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Welcome to the forum, Morten .
Nice example you have there.
Let's see what the connoisseurs have to say about it.
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Old 21st December 2014, 04:25 PM   #3
Morten
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Thanks, I hope someone have som information about this
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Old 21st December 2014, 05:52 PM   #4
Matchlock
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Hi Morten,


And welcome here.

I can defintely tell you every little detail about your carbine.

1. It was manufactured in Suhl after the Thirty Years War (1618-1648), in the 1660's, as a plain undecorated military saddle carbine
.

2. The date 1592 is spurious and a later addition, and so are all the bone inlays in the stock.

3. The original riding bar which attached the carbine safley to the saddle by a leather sling is missing from the opposite side of the lock; formerly, it was fixed by one of the of the sidenails and a forward screw also acting as a transversal pin for the stock and barrel;

Attached, from top, are images of both earlier and later Suhl saddle carbines:

- the forerunner types of your model, from the 1630's, still featuring the sided, edged and figured shape of the butt stock, together with the latest type of wheellock carbines ever made, ca. 1690-1700; note the difference in the butt stocks.

- military wheellock and matchlock muskets showing the stylistic development from ca. 1645 to ca. 1700, the Early Baroque period that followed the Renaissance; note the change of style of the stocks; by ca. 1660, they were shaped exactly like that of your item in discussion reflecting the new sense of style, resulting in bellied and rounded butt stocks;
all guns in The Michael Trömner Collection;

- a military saddle carbine of ca. 1660;

- military saddle carbines of ca. 1670-90, with the characteristic paddle shaped butt stock; note the side bar with the ring for a leather sling.

The stocks of the later guns usually are of beechwood.


Best,
Michael

Photos copyrighted by Thomas Del Mar Ltd., by Armin König, by the Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin and by the author.


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Last edited by Matchlock : 22nd December 2014 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 21st December 2014, 05:59 PM   #5
Marcus den toom
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I once owned a very similar example, yours has more stamps on it though.
My suhl carbine, also inlaid with bone plaques was made for the saxony market or even the Polish nobility. I would date this carbine to 1640-1650s.
I couldn't find the date of 1592 on the barrel in your pictures. The lettering ISE (?) is most likely what you meant?

The pin holding the trigger could be a replacement.

Still a nice gun on its own right.
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Old 21st December 2014, 06:29 PM   #6
Morten
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Thanks for information Michael, I also thought that it was later than the markings. I cant see any of your picyures.
Marcus, it's 1592 no letters there only numbers.
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Old 21st December 2014, 06:35 PM   #7
Marcus den toom
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Old 21st December 2014, 06:43 PM   #8
Matchlock
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[QUOTE=Morten]Thanks for information Michael, I also thought that it was later than the markings. I cant see any of your picyures.

I was still busy searching my archives for them; a profound reply is bound to take some time.

m
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Old 21st December 2014, 07:05 PM   #9
Matchlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
,
I couldn't find the date of 1592 on the barrel in your pictures.
I did some photoshopping on Morten's picture.

Best,
Michl
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Old 21st December 2014, 07:15 PM   #10
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Here are two pictures depicting wheellocks of the 1660's being fired: on top the author firing an original combined wheellock and matchlock musket almost 2o years ago, and a reenactor with his carbine modeled on an original.

Best,
Michael
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Old 21st December 2014, 09:38 PM   #11
Marcus den toom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
I did some photoshopping on Morten's picture.

Best,
Michl



Thank you Michl, but i still have doubts about the interpretation of this mark. It might just be my perspective beeing a bit off.. but i can see either a crude 1592 (especially the 5 and 9 are vague) or ISE with the E not in good shape.
The question is if you should read this as other mark SUL? The SUL are stamped within a square and are raised, the ISE is in the same manner. 1592 would be stamped without a boarder/sqaure around it and stamped inwards.

I have no knowledge (beeing 0-5%) on how stamps where made in those days.. i do know it is more common for dates to be stamped inwards without a boarder to highlight them.
Tomorrow there will be a good day to learn a new fact on firearms i feel... Michl, fire away

ps is that musket you fired/flashed by any chance the Montecuccoli?


Last edited by Marcus den toom : 21st December 2014 at 10:25 PM.
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