Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 6th August 2019, 07:24 AM   #1
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 831
Default Origin of maker´s stamp on this yatagan

Hello,
Please, could you help with the origin of the stamp on the blade ? I think the style of the handle is Anatolian. The total length is 93 cms. I would say it is the best blade I have ever seen on yatagan - thick, but with a very wide and deep groove and another one, small, above - which makes the blade relatively light and the yatagan is, despite its length and robustness, "well ballanced". The blade is only very gently springy, absolutely straight. Thank you.
Martin
Attached Images
   
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2019, 08:07 AM   #2
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,144
Default

Cool sword. Anatolia is of course also known as "Asia Minor", the Asian part of Turkey. D̶o̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶l̶e̶a̶r̶e̶r̶ ̶p̶h̶o̶t̶o̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶w̶e̶a̶p̶o̶n̶,̶ ̶e̶s̶p̶e̶c̶i̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶r̶i̶p̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶?̶.̶ The Small fuller near the spine is very decorative, but I suspect that the distal taper and the more general wider central groove helps the balance even more.

Edited:

I've 'fixed' the exposure of your original post overall photo, should help the experts pin down the area a bit more. As will the small ears of the grip.
Attached Images
 
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2019, 09:04 AM   #3
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 831
Default

Thank you for the correction of the exposure ! (I took photos at home before my current trip and the next possibility of some remedy/new pictures will be in November ...)
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2019, 10:33 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,699
Default

Way out of my field Martin, but this interesting example has a very European feel to me, and reminds me of the kinds of weapon often used by auxiliary units such as 'pandours' in the mid 18th c. and later similar 'exotic' units later.

I had somehow had the idea that Turkish or Ottoman makers did not typically sign or mark their work, and that the dynastic themes and couplets of poetry etc. took precedence.

The channeling and style of the blade as well as the deeply stamped cartouche suggest possible European make. I have seen such blades with similar profile etc. which were clearly European made, and engraved with European ligature.
These were almost certainly from European use in the Balkans in such units.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 10:43 AM   #5
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

It's probably a yataghan from the Balkans, maybe Greek?


Just kidding
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 11:29 AM   #6
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,048
Default

To me, the panelled blade had a Central Asian "feel". As for the stamp, lots of Ottoman Yataghans have stamps, possibly from the bigger workshops that exported them.
Pandour Yataghans tend to have more European mounts.
Attached Images
 
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 12:20 PM   #7
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,144
Default

Greek Yats tend to have integral bolsters, Turkish ones, not. As noted, lots of turkish yats have that small deep stamp that looks like there are some arabic letters inside.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 01:36 PM   #8
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 831
Default

Thanks for comments. The handle is Anatolian for sure. Re. the blade - I am definitely not an expert in yatagans, nevertheless to me it has "something like the Central Asian feel", too. It is interesting, that this style of blades exists (if we consider eastern side only) in Anatolia (yats) - and than there is big distance up to Indian sousson patas. There are not any Iranian and Afghan yatagans (I mean in recent 19th and beg. of 20th centuries, not in ancient times) ? (Sorry for this maybe trivial question).

As far as the possible European origin of the blade: The true is that its (thorough) workmansip recalls factory goods (e.g. quality cold weapons produced by the end of 19th century for armies ...).
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 02:11 PM   #9
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,048
Default

I would look at Afghanistan for this one. They made some odd hybrid weapons in the 19th century, and some outright copies as well. Afghan Kukri for example.
"Khyber knives" are regarded as a Yat' variant in fact.
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 02:41 PM   #10
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
As noted, lots of turkish yats have that small deep stamp that looks like there are some arabic letters inside.
And the Algerian yataghans, they don't have deep stamps?

Martin is it possible to have good photos of the handle?

I know, I'm annoying, I'm saying that Greek yataghans are Turkish and the Turkish are Algerians...

Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 03:01 PM   #11
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 831
Default

Kubur, I don´t have possibility to do another photos, now. The handle is made of ordinary horn, its mountings of brass (relatively thick plate).
"Ears": They are partially broken. It is not classical T-handle with long spiky edges. It is something between this T-handle and small flat ears (slightly widened at the end, but this is broken)
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 04:12 PM   #12
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
And the Algerian yataghans, they don't have deep stamps?

Martin is it possible to have good photos of the handle?

I know, I'm annoying, I'm saying that Greek yataghans are Turkish and the Turkish are Algerians...

Algeria was part of the Turkish sphere of influence, someone mentioned the stamp as being a 'European' indicator, Greece was restless under the Turkish thumb, and kept their Eastern orthodox roots. I disagreed that the stamp was European. I have noted the Greek yats and yat shaped shepherd's knives have those integral bolsters and the turkish empire ones usually do not. (libyan khodmi being an exception, and not a yat anyway).

Anyhow, the recurved blade sword is ancient, spearing from Spain thru the Med where Greek colonies abounded, and of course Greece and Macedon itself used the Kopis, and Alexander, (Iskander) spread it east thru Persia into Afghanistan and northern india and it is even found as far as Indonesia. And it went west again with Ptolomy into Egypt and North Africa.

Found a drawing of yat hilt types, sadly cannot find the notes that correspond, i gather the document they are from is in Russian anyway.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by kronckew; 7th August 2019 at 04:31 PM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 05:07 PM   #13
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky
Kubur, I don´t have possibility to do another photos, now. The handle is made of ordinary horn, its mountings of brass (relatively thick plate).
"Ears": They are partially broken. It is not classical T-handle with long spiky edges. It is something between this T-handle and small flat ears (slightly widened at the end, but this is broken)
Look at my Algerian yataghan, if you have such similar ears then you should consider serioulsy Algeria...
It would also explain the brutal beauty of the blade...
Attached Images
   
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 05:31 PM   #14
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 831
Default

Thank you Kronckew, the most similar is No 27, but with longer protruberances.
Thank you also for the nice compact summarization of the expansion of this style of blade in ancient times. I meant relatively recent times (like 19. and beginning of 20. century). Are there recurved yatagan like blades in Iran and Afganistan in this recent time period ? Not my field, but since I remember well recurved blades from 19/20 century discussed here were either yatagans (from anywhere) or Indian (Pakistan ?) swords ...
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 05:42 PM   #15
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 831
Default

Kubur, thank you ! But it is different - there is no beak on the handle of my yatagan. Enclosed please find cut-out from my previous picture.
Attached Images
 
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2019, 07:15 PM   #16
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,144
Default

Excellent Yataghan, the Rhino horn grip sets it a cut above the rest.

So many different Yats, so few years and little money to collect them....
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 06:51 AM   #17
sfenoid13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 134
Default

This is somewhat a unique form of Yatagan but not uncommon. This type originated from the Caucasus regions, Georgia or even Black Sea region. I have seen many examples in Turkey and I actually have one very similar to this one. The handle although broken is not the typical eared shape like most yatahans but rather a big Black Sea knife /dagger handle made of horn. This type of yatagans are usually heavy with larger than normal blades. Also very well forged steel blades are usually stamped rather than being etched or written on with silver or gold. The stamps are reminiscent or Georgian kindjlas or even Quaddaras. Beautiful and functional Yatagan.
sfenoid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 06:55 AM   #18
sfenoid13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 134
Default

See a similar example.(mine)
Attached Images
   
sfenoid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 07:06 AM   #19
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,859
Default

This is definitely not a typical blade.

Just have a look at the small double groove near the edge of the blade. Also the hollow grounding starting after about 15 cm from the very simple and atypical front bolster.

Last, but not least, even the maker's mark is very unusual and different from other known Turkish or Balkan examples.

To me, all these point to the direction that this blade was not made in any of the traditional Yatagan making centres. Neither Turkey, nor the Balkans.

My hunch would be Russian or European made blade.

The same goes for the Yatagan in posting #18. For this example, I noticed it bears the same maker's mark as the blade from the last photo of posting #6. That also is definitely not a typical Ottoman bolster.

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 8th August 2019 at 07:51 AM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 07:17 AM   #20
sfenoid13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 134
Default

Agreed! The handle is more like #24

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
This is definitely not a typical blade.

Just have a look at the small double groove near the edge of the blade. Also the hollow grounding starting after about 15 cm from the very simple and atypical front bolster.

Last, but not least, even the maker's mark is very unusual and different from other known Turkish or Balkan examples.

To me, all these point to the direction that this blade was not made in any of the traditional Yatagan making centres. Neither Turkey, nor the Balkans.

My hunch would be Russian or European made blade.

The same goes for the Yatagan in posting #18. For this example, I noticed it bears the same maker's mark as the blade from the last photo of posting #6. That also is definitely not a typical Ottoman bolster.
sfenoid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 07:28 AM   #21
sfenoid13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 134
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky
Kubur, thank you ! But it is different - there is no beak on the handle of my yatagan. Enclosed please find cut-out from my previous picture.
By looking at this picture again in better light it’s clear that the handle and the bolster are both later replacements , done in Turkey. Repairs are probably not too old .
sfenoid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 07:36 AM   #22
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfenoid13
By looking at this picture again in better light it’s clear that the handle and the bolster are both later replacements , done in Turkey. Repairs are probably not too old .
Why? I'm interested to know... Could you explain? Thanks
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 08:30 AM   #23
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 831
Default

Sfenoid13, you probably have good eyes, so just to avoid misunderstandings:
Bolster on one side was missing - and so it was completed after the acquisition (BTW by the skilled Turkish craftsmen, in this field). I am not sure if it is the one on the picture or not. In any case, it is exactly - really exactly the same like the original one (which is on another side ?).

The horn handle is old and used, it could be original.

Maybe crazy idea (?), but I would not reject the possibility of (butch) production of this big blades for the Ottoman or Turkish Army at the turn of the 19/20 centuries or during and after the 1st World War (twenties) ... But I have no information about this
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 04:26 PM   #24
sfenoid13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 134
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Why? I'm interested to know... Could you explain? Thanks
The handle type as it appears from the photos seems to be one with very small ears, evern it’s broken, you can see the shape is kind of a like T, very small but still kind of a T. This is the preferred type of replacement many repaired Yatagans have. I might be wrong but it’s just a gut thing after seeing so many Yatagans, original and repaired ones. The bolsters are both replacements, one may be and sneer replacement that the other, agains based on the shape andaso the fit and finish. This type of Yatagans tend to have a straight edge bolster, again based on the examples I have seen. I am not expert and these are just based on my opinions based on a couple of bad pictures of the particular Yatahan without being able to see it in person. By the way I also believe the blade is highly polished , not the original finish. It still looks nice but I’m sure you will agree it is polished more recently.
sfenoid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2019, 08:08 AM   #25
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,144
Default

I would think a victorious army after a battle would have a number of weapons for the armourers to repair, they would likely not take the time for artistry and would be as simple and quick as possible, and would cut back any broken grip ears and round off the stumps, matching as close as the remnants allow on both sides, to get it functional & back to it's owner ASAP before the next engagement. Which they then lost & it was taken as a trophy.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2019, 08:29 AM   #26
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 831
Default

Sfenoid13, Thank you for your opinion re. Georgian and/or Black See origin and picture of your yatagan with a very similar blade. Blade of your yatagan is very similar.
The blade of my yatagan was rusty. Unfortunately it was that kind of difficult rust, which is not covering the blade of the yatagan evenly (I mean there were isles of the very nice and smooth original surface and isles of rust, sometimes going deep). The steel is hard and also the rust was somehow "stony". I was doing my best to remove the rust and not to damage the blade and to save the uniform look of the surface of the blade at the same time. I think that the kind of "polishing" was necessary, in the final stage. But it was not classical polishing - t The picture also reflects bad light conditions.
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th August 2019, 11:00 AM   #27
Saracen
Member
 
Saracen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 147
Default

T-shaped handle - zeybek yatagan
Attached Images
 
Saracen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.