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Old 26th February 2024, 11:48 AM   #31
Gustav
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Alan, it doesn't wonder me at all, that people have formed an opinion about the similarity of Panataran carving to a Buginese sheath. Your picture was the first one where I clearly could discern the shape of Gandar, which is identical to Pagarruyung sheath. We also probably all have experienced the fact, that sometimes some details are much more easily noticed in a photograph then in real life.

What, I think, till now escapes many people, besides the Gandar shape, is the fact, that the front side of sheath in profile forms a straight line, like the sheath of Pagarruyung Keris.

Knowing Pagarruyung Keris and its sheath we even can tell, that a Jalak Budho or Bethok blade with Gandhik, not protruding outside the blade profile, will have a corresponding sheath with no protrusion where Gandhik is placed. (As we know, sheath is sometimes mimicking the details of the blade it houses, like Kruwingan.)The Keris from Panataran carving also seems to not have a protruding Gandhik.

The sheath from likely later Candi Sukuh carving shows a protruding front part, and that allows us to speculate, that Keris inside it also already would have a protruding Gandhik part.
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Old 26th February 2024, 11:49 AM   #32
A. G. Maisey
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At the core of my comments in Post 18 is this statement:-

"Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear --- "

once this is understood everything else that we have wandered over might be considered to be somewhat superfluous.

However, we're here to exchange ideas, so here are a few more:-

Post 24 --- I have already commented upon one element of this post, but there is something else that I should mention.

The wrongko in the relief carving at Candi Sukuh, that I have shown in my Post #18 & that appears again but reversed in Post 24, does not have a widheng, what looks vaguely like a spiral in the photo is in fact the natural grain of weathered 15th century rock.

In respect of exactly what classification can be applied to the Candi Sukuh wrongko. Yes, it does have some characteristics of a modern ladrangan, and of a modern sandang walikat, and also of a modern jamprahan & certainly of some bancihan forms. However, we do not have even the vaguest idea of what the name was for this form in the 15th century. For a long time I was inclined to think of it as a ladrangan form, not so much because of the wrongko itself, but rather because of the scene in which it appears.

At the present time I would be inclined to accept what anybody, with some understanding of the relative fields, thought that they could see. My own opinions are rarely set in stone, they change continually, and depend upon what I have learnt.

Post 25 --- The Wrongko shown in Post 25 is a Jogja Bancihan form, it is not one of the six Jogja formal Ladrangan forms recognised for official wear. The word "bancihan" comes from the root "banci", which in Javanese means an effeminate man, ie, a man who is neither fully male but also not female. At the present time some people regard the bancihan wrongko forms as having a stigma attached to them, perhaps this is unreasonable, because by likening this wrongko form to an effeminate man, the implied understanding is that it is neither one thing nor the other, it is sort of stuck in the middle with nowhere to go.

Post 26 --- The wrongko shown in Post 26 is the Balinese Jamprahan form, in past times the Jamprahan wrongko form was worn by religious leaders. This defined use accounts for its comparative rarity. This wrongko form is not the equivalent of a Javanese ladrangan form.

Post 27 --- The wrongko shown in this post appears to be a North Javanese variation, not a Central Javanese form, it could be original, it could be an alteration. I have no idea what it might have been classified as in its place & time of origin, but in Central Jawa it would be called "bancihan".

Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 26th February 2024 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 26th February 2024, 12:01 PM   #33
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Re Post #31.

I have seen other keris with that little bit of floral carving at the end of the gandar, I've forgotten where they were from, I think probably Madura. They were old, not recent copies.

As for relating blade shape to wrongko shape, I've never given this any thought, its just not the sort of thing that interests me. But having said that, yes, you could well be right.
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Old 26th February 2024, 12:36 PM   #34
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Alan, in my post #9, to which you referred in #18, I wrote:

"I have seen one old Branggah from Yogyakarta without Angkup, which was, so far as I can tell, in its original state."

In #18 you wrote;

(...) a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, (...)

in my post #25 I presented a picture of this Branggah without Angkup, which you call Yogyakarta Bancihan.

That's it from my perpective, and we probably can call it a day.
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Old 26th February 2024, 12:39 PM   #35
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Alan, I think, this carving at the end of Gandar survives also as the ornament at the same place on backside of some old Pendok.

My thought at the moment is, that this feature perhaps could have symbolised Makara at some point of its existence.
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Old 26th February 2024, 07:24 PM   #36
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Post 34 --- all true Gustav, the name used in Jogja for a ladrangan wrongko is branggah, it has a different name in Bali, & a different name in Madura, the forms are all marginally different, but whatever name we use, it is the formal wrongko no matter where it is found.

That Post 25 "branggah" never was a branggah, it was made as a bancihan.

Post 35 In respect of the little panel of embossing that we sometimes find at the foot of the reverse face of a pendok, this could be an idea worth pursuing. In Jawa/Bali iconography the Makara is often paired with the Kala head, both act as guardians, the Makara is symbolic of lust, the wrongko is female in character.

The Kala sometimes appears on the front of a wrongko atasan, either as a topengan (mask) or as an integral carving.

Yeah, it sounds to me like a good idea, but good ideas cannot stand alone. At this remove I don't know how this idea might be able to be supported
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Old 26th February 2024, 08:41 PM   #37
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Mr. Maisey and Gustav,

thank you for this in depth philosophy of altering Ladrang, It is interesting to read all the possibillities and the sheer amount of knowledge is shared on a quistion i asked. There is a lot to learn for me, and thank you all for the time you put in trying to give some insight and answers.

I learn each day a bit more, and i appreciate how the knowledge is shared here on the forum.
thank you all.

Martin
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Old 26th February 2024, 09:15 PM   #38
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Alan, one last question regarding post #32.

is Javanese Bancihan form equivalent to Balinese Jamprahan? Just because Lalu Djelengga and Pande Suteja Neka calls this form "Jamprahan, also Bancihan".
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Old 26th February 2024, 11:13 PM   #39
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I cannot give a definitive response to this question Gustav.

See below:-

Javanese -- jamprah -- long & luxuriant
banci -- an effeminate man, an asexual person

Balinese -- jamprah -- long, trailing, luxuriant
bancih -- an hermaphrodite

Indonesian -- jamprah -- not found
banci -- effeminate, transvestite, homosexual, powerless,
hermaphrodite, as well as two other unrelated
meanings

Old Javanese -- banci, bancih, bhanci -- not found
jamprah -- not found

Neither "banci" nor "jamprah" appear in Malay, Wilkinson gives "banchi" as Javanese with the meaning of "hermaphrodite".

The dominant Balinese name of "jamprahan" is appropriate to the form.

To my knowledge "jamprah" is not used for this form in Central Jawa, it could be used in other places in Jawa.

For me, the sticking point is that I cannot find either word in Old Javanese or Kawi, & I would have expected at least "jamprah" in Old Javanese.

We know that some people do not use the word "banci" or "bancih" to refer to this wrongko form, but rather, they avoid the issue by using "bancean/bincihan", I do not know, cannot find, either of these spellings in any related language.

However, the crux of the matter is this:-

what is the place & purpose, or more correctly, what was the place & purpose of this form in Bali & in Jawa?

We know that in Bali the jamprahan form was the prerogative of religious leaders.

We know that in Jawa the bancihan wrongko forms are used by dalangs, ie the wayang puppet masters.

We know that some anthropologists have placed the wayang as the foundation stone of Javanese religious philosophy & the director of Javanese social mores.

I personally do not see the bancihan/jemprahan form as being equivalent in societal terms in Jawa & Bali, I see it rather as a marker that identifies a leader in the field of applied social philosophy.

Equally, I see the term "bancihan" as colloquial misuse, probably generated by Islamic societal influence, and the word "jamprahan" as an appropriate descriptive name.
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Old 26th February 2024, 11:44 PM   #40
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Incidentally, the mention of the respected name of Pande Wayan Suteja Neka has prompted me to make mention of something.

I think we all know about the Keris display at the Neka Museum in Ubud. Well, I was there last week and i found that this display has now been expanded into the other side of the first floor space.

This new addition contains only old keris, all in Balinese dress. The various keris blades identified as Balinese is quite an education.

For those who do not yet know, Pande Neka is a very successful art dealer, museum owner, and promoter of Balinese culture --- amongst other things --- and a highly respected member of the Ubud art coterie.

His new addition is well worth a visit, the more you think you might know, the more you will be amazed.
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Old 27th February 2024, 06:48 AM   #41
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Alan, thank you.
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Old 27th February 2024, 09:02 PM   #42
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This thread began with a question on restoration/repair of a ladrang /ladrangan wrongko, so I thought it might be of interest if we considered the name of this type of wrongko.

The name "ladrang" or "ladrangan" (ie, "like a ladrang") was not just plucked out of thin air and stuck on the formal Javanese wrongko style, it has a relationship to something else, that something else is gamelan music. Gamelan is the traditional music form of Javanese, Balinese & Sundanese people.

In gamelan music the word "ladrang" refers to a number of beats (32) that are played between the strikes of the biggest gong (gong ageng) which sets the rhythmic structure of a composition. Ladrang can be used in any melody tempo except for one.

The ladrang in gamelan music is integral to the rhythm of a composition, the rhythm of a composition conveys the feeling of the composition.

The ladrangan wrongko is worn at formal & official occasions, & its universal use for dress at that occasion conveys the feeling attached to the occasion, thus the ladrangan wrongko serves the same purpose in a social context as does the ladrang in gamelan music, ergo, it is "like a ladrang" = "ladrangan".


I'm not a real big fan of gamelan music, some I rather like, some I do not like --- which is about what applies with my taste in western music too, as they say, "there are only two types of music, good music & bad music, & each of us decides which is which". What I have just related above is apparently gamelan 101.


Gayaman wrongko.

While we're at it, we might as well look at the other major type of Javanese wrongko too, the gayaman.

The word "gayaman" means "like a gayam".

The gayam tree is a shade tree in Jawa that has small edible fruit, best way to eat this fruit is to make chips of it and fry it.

Anyway, the gayaman wrongko supposedly looks like a gayam fruit, which I guess it does with only a little bit of imagination.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 27th February 2024 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 28th February 2024, 05:24 PM   #43
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Thanks for that additional information. As someone who also has a passion for world percussion I find this explanation of extra interest.
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Old 28th February 2024, 06:43 PM   #44
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Gamelan is perhaps a percussionists percussion, but my flavour of percussion is more along the lines of Frank Carlson, Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa --- the greats of the swing era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlCsypqkjyE

What I do find to be incredibly clever is the way in which gamelan players are taught.

Some teachers have the ability to sit opposite the pupil & play in a reverse position. Incredible to watch.
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Old 29th February 2024, 07:56 PM   #45
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Dear Mr. Maisey and Gustav from Ladrang to Gamelan it 's curious to see where it guide us. Very interesting observations and it brings me to the point just find a good ladrang with age that will fit my Keris.

The more i read the more i want to know but also the amount of questions grows.

It's a pleasure to be among so much knowledge and thank you all for trying to clear things for me.
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