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Old 17th December 2007, 03:35 AM   #1
ariel
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Default UK bans Japanese swords.

Modern " Sword of Zelda' and "Sword of the Elven King" are, apparently, harmless


Banning samurai swords Thu Dec 13, 10:30 AM ET



LONDON (Reuters) - The government said Wednesday it would ban the sale of samurai swords because the weapons had been used in a number of serious, high-profile attacks.

The Home Office said the swords would be added to the Offensive Weapons Order from April next year, meaning they could not be imported, sold or hired.

However collectors of genuine Japanese swords and those used by martial arts enthusiasts would be exempt from the ban.

"In the wrong hands, samurai swords are dangerous weapons," Home Office Minister Vernon Coaker said.

"We recognize it is the cheap, easily available samurai swords which are being used in crime and not the genuine more expensive samurai swords which are of interest to collectors and martial arts enthusiasts."

The Association of Chief Police Officers said the swords were not a common weapon but they had been used in a number of significant incidents.

In 2000, Robert Ashman murdered a Liberal Democrat councilor at the offices of Cheltenham MP Nigel Jones, who was also seriously hurt in the attack.

A year earlier, Eden Strang seriously wounded 11 people when he went on the rampage with a samurai sword at a Roman Catholic Church near his home in Thornton Heath, south London.

(Reporting by Michael Holden; Editing by Tim Castle)
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Old 17th December 2007, 03:38 AM   #2
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Well, they join throwing stars in California on the "illegal--hunh???" list. I wonder how cheap is still legal, or how often you have to go to the dojo to be considered a martial artist...

I predict a rise in violent crimes perpetrated with claymores and rapiers, myself.

F
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Old 17th December 2007, 03:42 AM   #3
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May the gods protect us from the idiot politicians who think any type
of weapon is dangerous. It's the stupid people who misuse them that
are dangerous, not the knife, sword, throwing star, etc. Of perhaps it's
just that politicians who are dangerous to our freedom. My question is:
who protects us from the politicians??

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Old 17th December 2007, 03:52 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
I wonder how cheap is still legal, or how often you have to go to the dojo to be considered a martial artist...

And lord knows martial artists never commit crimes...
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Old 17th December 2007, 04:04 AM   #5
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Thumbs down What a STUPID idea!!

At least in this country (New Zealand), sanity still prevails!!! If you are a POM you had better get used to no kitchen knives---they will be next!! This spanks of the reaction a few years ago re firearms in the UK.
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Old 17th December 2007, 06:40 AM   #6
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those two instances are the only ones i've ever heard about. there are no hordes of unwashed barbarian ronin wandering our streets slicing peasants for the fun of it.

they banned guns a few years back, gun crime goes up about 50%
of course criminals don't obey the law, guns flood in from eastern europe, machine shops convert non-firing metal replica guns, or make new ones from scratch.

there have been a number of highly published shootings of teen agers recently, so the govt. had to do something. they've already banned guns; so they've banned samurai swords in order to appear to have 'done something'. this is a trial to see how much objection they get, they'll then have a precedent for the next ban.

they are setting us up for the next round. they've been talking about sharp pointy things and publishing studies by 'eminent' doctors (or is that imminent ) saying there is no need for a knife to have a point and all knives sold should have rounded points. it's not the law yet, but i see it coming. of course we all know knives and swords with rounded points are unable to cause damage didn't they ban pointy bolos in the philippines once? those square tipped bolos couldn't slice anyone then, i guess.

my dha is also 'safe' i guess


plastic (rounded tip of course) knives and forks are next, followed by making even them illegal. reminds me of the PC ZT principal in a US elementary school who hauled a five year old girl into his office and screamed and yelled at her for breaking the rule that scissors could not be brought into the school. the scissors were plastic (rounded points again) and had been handed out by the school for arts and crafts class. the girl was so scared she wee'd on the floor so the principal called the police and had her arrested for assault. great example to our youth.

they have not figured out that the tool is not the weapon, it's the mind behind it.
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Old 17th December 2007, 07:32 AM   #7
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Default 2008 YEAR OF THE AXE

The axe man cometh. The sign of the axe . A ban on those nasty cheap swords, I wipeth the spears from mine eyes.
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Old 17th December 2007, 08:43 AM   #8
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ah, but axes are covered by the existing 'offensive weapons' laws, which cover anything with a point or blade or any other tool or device which can be reasonably expected to be able to cause harm to a person. they cannot be carried off your property without a valid reason, such as martial arts or an arms show, but it's the police & crown prosecutors who decide on the validity, not you.

if the police suspect that prohibited items under the act are in your possession, they may apply for a warrant to search your premises and seize any weapons and any others found in the pursuit of the warrant, but not directly mentioned therein, and a judge may issue an instruction to have them destroyed (even if you are found innocent) 'taking in to account the value thereof and it's impact on the accused' (?).

as there is no such thing as a 'defensive' weapon, even if you ARE on your property, using one for defence is considered as use of an offensive weapon with the intent to cause greavous bodily harm & can result in prosecution.

here's a decent linky on UK knife law: at British Knife Collecters Guild

a recent case involved a man burgled and attacked in his own home who picked up a steak knife & wounded the poor club wealding perpetrator, who said he was just trying to get away, the homeowner was prosecuted for assault with an offensive weapon and greavous bodily harm. the burglar testified for the crown & was given immunity.

what a world, what a world.....
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Old 17th December 2007, 09:12 AM   #9
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You Brits can't be trusted with anything dangerous. Those forks with their
sharp tines are surely deadly weapons. Soon only broad wooden spoons
will be allowed. Then they'll be used to beat each other over the head.
May the gods save us from arsine politicians.

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Old 17th December 2007, 12:22 PM   #10
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Default samurai ban

Hmm.. following logic, i guess beer glasses and bottles will be next,
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Old 17th December 2007, 01:49 PM   #11
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Just yesterday the BBC had a story about a shooting at a school in Finland and the liberal gun laws in that country. Everyone owns a gun and yet gun violence is extremely low. The reporter was asking some official or other if the country shouldn't increase restrictions on gun ownership and the man told her straight up that no law can stop a person's intent to do harm. If the shooter had not had a gun, he would have used a knife or something else. The Finns understand how things work, they don't just pass idiotic laws so show face.

I don't understand why they target "samurai" swords specifically when any SLO can do the same damage politicians
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Old 17th December 2007, 02:15 PM   #12
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To prove the point, Washington DC has one of the strictest gun ownership
laws in the US. No private ownership of any type of gun (handgun or rifle,
shotgun), yet it has one of the highest gun violence and gun murder rates
in the US. I think the Finns have the right idea.

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Old 17th December 2007, 03:05 PM   #13
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The two countries in the world with the highest %% of households having modern firearms, Israel and Switzerland, have the lowest firearm-connected crime rates.
But give them access to the China-made " Eximious Military Affairs Samurai Yatagans", and all the hell will break loose....
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Old 17th December 2007, 03:36 PM   #14
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I cannot say I am bothered about these swords but it is a ridiculous knee jerk reaction. They are not my taste and an it could be seen as an erosion of personal freedom for a certain level of UK citizen. It might be through one of these swords that a person gets interested in a much more like us.

One can cry about freedom all you like, generally we do not like guns and knives in the UK {sporting guns are an exception unless you carry one around town} If you are not stupid and are aware of the fear the inappropriate public display of weapons have here in the UK you will be okay.
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Old 17th December 2007, 03:45 PM   #15
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Generally try to avoid 'politics' but cannot resist commenting on the relentless advance of stupidity in lawmaking. Obviously if someone is about to commit a crime there they will avoid using a Samurai sword, uh, because they're illegal?
I cannot help think of the thousands of crimes committed using cars.....gee I hope they dont outlaw them! What would the oil companies do!! Hmmmm.
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Old 17th December 2007, 04:05 PM   #16
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I suppose they'll ban this new 'fangled' hedge trimmer ....as well

HEDGE TRIMMER


Here is the 'quality' katana wall hanger in use .. a deadly weapon ....... Oh ....I,m scared

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUUinBekDZI


Here a 'seller' realises why these cheap swords are so dangerous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzV6J3SQ8Qs

Last edited by katana : 17th December 2007 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 17th December 2007, 04:50 PM   #17
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Thumbs down

Throw the Mary Poppins legislators out of Parliament .

Only reason these swords are going illegal is because someone attacked a British Politician with one .........
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Old 17th December 2007, 05:23 PM   #18
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My mother has a sawn off rolling pin!! Criminal women.
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Old 17th December 2007, 05:38 PM   #19
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The scaryist thing about it was 6 months ago there definition of a Samuri sword was a sword with a "curved blade" It will be intresting to see there next set of diffinitions etc. unless the same sword can be sold as Chinese or mongolian swords which somehow I doubt.

I have a 21inch kukri with a curved blade, which could fit there original definition of a samari sword! {they dont define the direction of curve or length.]

The current home office release points out that most Samurai Art Swords are over 100 years old so will be exempt. Which looks like they may be going to ban even the sale of Gunto & Gendiato from ww2.

untill they show the actual wording of the new law, I cant tell what type of swords it will realy effect. The law is to be introduced in April apparently.

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Old 17th December 2007, 05:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
they are setting us up for the next round. they've been talking about sharp pointy things and publishing studies by 'eminent' doctors (or is that imminent ) saying there is no need for a knife to have a point and all knives sold should have rounded points. it's not the law yet, but i see it coming. of course we all know knives and swords with rounded points are unable to cause damage didn't they ban pointy bolos in the philippines once? those square tipped bolos couldn't slice anyone then, i guess.
.



STOP PRESS;
MP's DECIDE SHARP POINTY THINGS ARE DANGEROUS ...AND DECIDE TO SET AN EXAMPLE ...BY REMODELLING THE HOUSE OF COMMONs.
An insider is quoted as saying "you never know, an airline passenger may jump from their plane ....and impale himself on the spire of Big Ben.
'Cotton wool ' lawns are being considered as well , in case, the proposed hapless passenger misses.......

An artist's impression of the modifications...
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Old 17th December 2007, 09:22 PM   #21
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Cool

Are you organising a resistance movement ?
Please do .
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Old 18th December 2007, 02:22 AM   #22
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Thumbs down POLITICIANS and ARMS LAWS

These two words should NEVER be used together. Just to add to what I have already said about this subject in relation to our own laws in NZ, I would share this little bit which came out of the Canadian attempt to register each and every firearm (gun) in Canada.
They required that the MODEL number of the item HAD to be used, and to that end there were thousands of Ruger 10/22 rifles appearing for registration. Unfortunately for the poor sod who was doing the recording, the model number was accidently substituted for the SERIAL number, so noone actually knew who had which rifle!! And just to cap it all of, one overzealous cop DEMANDED that the owner register his WELLA SOLDERING GUN---I kid you not!!
So, if you live in the UK, get all those knives (and anything that remotely resembles a knife) ready for registration, and good luck to the STUPID politicians who dream up this crap! Its going to cost someone $$$Millions.
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Old 18th December 2007, 02:43 AM   #23
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I live in the state of New South Wales, in Australia. In early 2004, as a requirement under the Act, the NSW government initiated a review of the Weapons Prohibition Act. The then Minister for Police made public his intention of ensuring that one of the results of the review of this Act would be restrictions on the ownership of swords. His prime concern at the time appeared to be "samurai swords".

This review has not yet been completed.
I have been advised by a member of the reviewing body that the completion and release for public comment of the review, and its recommendations, is imminent.

When the results of this review are available I will ensure that all members of this forum are made aware of the content of the report and recommendations.

It is absolutely pointless to get emotional about these bans that are spreading across the world like a plague. This is a political matter, and the only way in which to effectively combat it is by political and legal means.If any of us wish to oppose these bans, this opposition must be mounted in a way that politicians may take note of, however, the problem here is that we are a very small minority group, and simply are not able to pose any significant threat to any political agenda.

Because of our limited numbers, perhaps the only way in which we might be able to impact upon these ill thought out political actions is to act in concert. In other words every single one of us, right across the world, should write to the relevant politician in whatever country, each time the government of a country proposes introduction of legislation that could effect our common interest.

Letters should be polite and logical, and where possible should demonstrate a quantifiable negative posed by the introduction of such legislation.

This present legislation that we are discussing is UK legislation.

If somebody in the UK can provide the name, title and address of the responsible politician, I propose that we do our best to bury this person in mail.
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Old 18th December 2007, 02:53 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
I suppose they'll ban this new 'fangled' hedge trimmer ....as well

HEDGE TRIMMER


Here is the 'quality' katana wall hanger in use .. a deadly weapon ....... Oh ....I,m scared

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUUinBekDZI


Here a 'seller' realises why these cheap swords are so dangerous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzV6J3SQ8Qs

David, these videos are too funny!
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Old 18th December 2007, 03:26 AM   #25
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Hmmm. I'm going to point out some problems with the standard line, and make a suggestion.

1. Correlation is not causation. That got drummed into me in grad school. For instance, I'd guess that Washington DC has the most restrictive gun laws possibly because it has a lot of shootings, not the other way 'round. Of course, not every place that experiences many shootings outlaws guns, and some places (like the UK) outlaw things even when they're not a major problem (like guns).

2. Outlawing the weapons is pointless, because they're too easy to make. Any clown with a bar of metal, a grinder, and some duct tape can turn out a cheap sword. The best such laws can do is disarm honest citizens and bring in fine money from people prosecuted under the act.

3. I'd suggest that we take a couple of approaches for us to take, if we want to talk to politicians.

a. The flight 93 approach. So far, the US government has prevented 0 of 4 airborne terrorist attacks, whereas an ad-hoc group of citizens stopped one attack using improvised weapons and died in the attempt. An armed, loyal citizenry is a potent deterrent to terrorism and other crimes, and it is arguably 400% more effective than the US government in preventing attacks already in progress.

b. The "swords don't shoot through homes" approach. As an apartment dweller, I always favored bladed weapons or shotguns for home defense, because they didn't end up in the kids next door (as bullets do). Blades are good this way.

c. The import/manufacturing fee approach. I wouldn't mind paying a fee to own a sword, provided said fee was higher than the price of the average cheap sword from China. If people have to pay import fees to bring cheap swords into the country, it will make cheap junk swords less cost-effective, and (forlorn hope) might stem the tide of cheap swords, knives, etc. coming in from China and elsewhere. This is in our interests as collectors.

d. The "you want to ban military sabers?" approach. "Katana" is not a synonym for any curved sword, and I think some officers would be seriously annoyed about having to give up their dress sabers. I've seen this technique work in other contexts. Help the lawmakers define the blades they want to ban, and if you do it right, it will help you keep your favorite swords. For instance, define "outlaw katanas" as blades that are not laminated, are of set dimensions, shape, materials, and design, etc. Make sure that nothing in your collection meets the outlaw definition, and you're safe. Maybe not so principled, but there you have it.

My 0.02 cents,

F
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Old 18th December 2007, 04:42 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
I live in the state of New South Wales, in Australia. In early 2004, as a requirement under the Act, the NSW government initiated a review of the Weapons Prohibition Act. The then Minister for Police made public his intention of ensuring that one of the results of the review of this Act would be restrictions on the ownership of swords. His prime concern at the time appeared to be "samurai swords".

This review has not yet been completed.
I have been advised by a member of the reviewing body that the completion and release for public comment of the review, and its recommendations, is imminent.

When the results of this review are available I will ensure that all members of this forum are made aware of the content of the report and recommendations.

It is absolutely pointless to get emotional about these bans that are spreading across the world like a plague. This is a political matter, and the only way in which to effectively combat it is by political and legal means.If any of us wish to oppose these bans, this opposition must be mounted in a way that politicians may take note of, however, the problem here is that we are a very small minority group, and simply are not able to pose any significant threat to any political agenda.

Because of our limited numbers, perhaps the only way in which we might be able to impact upon these ill thought out political actions is to act in concert. In other words every single one of us, right across the world, should write to the relevant politician in whatever country, each time the government of a country proposes introduction of legislation that could effect our common interest.

Letters should be polite and logical, and where possible should demonstrate a quantifiable negative posed by the introduction of such legislation.

This present legislation that we are discussing is UK legislation.

If somebody in the UK can provide the name, title and address of the responsible politician, I propose that we do our best to bury this person in mail.



Alan,
I did write that letter to the Minister of Police in 2004, in exactly the manner you have described here. Naturally I never heard further, but I can only hope it had some impact. What you say is exactly correct, and quantified presentation is more likely to receive serious consideration. Naturally, here we can vent our outrage at these ridiculous legislations, but to effectively respond we must communicate objectively.
Best regards,
Jim
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Old 18th December 2007, 10:04 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
.

If somebody in the UK can provide the name, title and address of the responsible politician, I propose that we do our best to bury this person in mail.



Unfortunotly Alan the closing date for the home office consultation of this law was last May, over 13,000 sword/knife collecters petitioned & wrote to the Home Office pointing out the innefectiveness of the proposed law.

Heres the pre & post consultation documents. {including the points put over by the sword collecters & also others not so keen on swords.} It includes relevant address but says consultation finnishes may 2007.

linky home office lawmakers...


Sadley there response to sword collecters/martial artists etc was.

"We need to balance the views of the many collectors and martial arts enthusiasts against the position adopted by law enforcement agencies and victims’ organisations, reflecting the views of wider communities, who thought a ban necessary and proportionate to tackle the menace of violent crime involving these weapons."


There proposed, [not finalised.} definition of a samari sword is.


“a curved, single edged sword (sometimes known as a “samurai sword”)”.

Fearn, exceptions are made in English knife laws for the military & Police if its in pursuance of the job.

As we all know this law wont stop any outlaw, {by the very definition.} But the politiceans can sit back & say, how tough they are bieng on crime & have 2 days congratulations from the press that is bought by the unwashed masses of the public.

I think given this & any futre legislation to truly be able to feel safe with your swords , Id say make sure there over 100 years old.

But hopefully there final definition of a samari sword will be mores sensible than there first one.

Another sad year for sense in Great Britain.

Spiral
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Old 18th December 2007, 10:58 AM   #28
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Default Stabbing incidents

In the Netherlands we have a similar thing happening.

The last 2 months we had some sad stabbing incidents in and around schools.

The Minister of Justice turned out to be smart person when this week he claimed that most stabbing incidents involve the use of knives
Good point, a lot of knives are suitable for stabbing.

Suggestion now is to ban knives such as stilleto's and butterflyknives, which personally I don't mind.

But as a whole this decission ofcourse is the same reaction you see in the UK. Next time somebody might us a screwdriver for stabbing.
And what are we going to do than, ban screwdrivers ?
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Old 18th December 2007, 11:58 AM   #29
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Thanks for the link Spiral

It is interesting that.....from one of the documents.....

".....Others, including a former officer with the Metropolitan and the City of London Police forces who is also
a martial arts instructor, considers that no matter what weapon is added to the Offensive Weapons Order,
it will have no effect on the UK’s knife culture. He suggests that the favourite weapons used in crime are
the knives that are cheap, readily available and easy to dispose of......."

Some 'sanity' does prevail afterall, however, it seems that professional / amateur organisations concerning collecting, martial arts etc have not been consulted 'directly'.

As for 'public opinion'......it seems in Britain (and I suspect in most other countries) the 'media' (newspapers) have a massive effect.
Sensationalising news sells papers......but distorts the story out of all proportion..... and suddenly the population is fearful of an 'exaggerated' threat. Fuelled by MPs that seek publicity by proposing extreme action in accordance to the 'manufactured' opinion of the masses.

A sad situation for any democracy......

Regards David
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Old 18th December 2007, 12:41 PM   #30
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These are very interesting...

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/phpnews/wmview.php?ArtID=1327

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=12&gl=uk

Here are some statistics of weapon related crime in the US....for some sort of comparison.

http://www.crimereduction.homeoffic.../violence15.htm


A word about unreliable statistics....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...0/nknife320.xml

Regards David

Last edited by katana : 18th December 2007 at 01:14 PM.
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