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Old 3rd July 2008, 02:04 PM   #1
Atlantia
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Default Shamshir help needed Blade cartouche translation

Just a general 'please help with any info' really.
I think its Turkish, can't translate the blade inscription, wonder if (as many I've seen) the asymetric crossguard tine is deliberate or if one is routinely removed. Date guesses?

Thanks for looking.
Gene















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Old 3rd July 2008, 03:16 PM   #2
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I think it reads work of Kalb Ali but Dom could say for sure.
Arabic language but could be Persia India or Turk
Guard looks messed with like somebody took a belt grinder to it

Ward
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Old 3rd July 2008, 03:41 PM   #3
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The blade, with its single, wide, upper-part located fuller looks European military to me.
Signatures of KalbAli are not as frequent as his alleged father's ( Assad Ullah) simply because there was less money in faking KalbAli's moniker. Adding a signature, cartouch or "beduh" onto a European or trade blade was a venerable practice all over the Middle East.
I kinda think it is not very old ( OK , older than John McCain or yours truly!), but not older than late 19th century.
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Old 3rd July 2008, 03:59 PM   #4
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Is the fact that the fuller runs under the guard rather than stops short of it with space for the cartouche on a flat section at the base of the blade unusual for this type of weapon?
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Old 3rd July 2008, 04:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
I think it reads work of Kalb Ali but Dom could say for sure.
Arabic language but could be Persia India or Turk
Guard looks messed with like somebody took a belt grinder to it

Ward


Hi Ward,
Thanks, hopefully Dom will take a look.
LOL! Who's Kalb Ali?
There's no grinder marks on tha guard, I've seen several similar swords with one langet only which is why I wonderd if they were routinely removed or if these were made asymetric. The guard is thin metal and 'filled' like Tulwars are.
The patination on the side of the missing langet is not suggestive of that area having been subject to different enviromental conditions (as the other side is filled to the end).

Cheers
Gene
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Old 3rd July 2008, 04:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
The blade, with its single, wide, upper-part located fuller looks European military to me.
Signatures of KalbAli are not as frequent as his alleged father's ( Assad Ullah) simply because there was less money in faking KalbAli's moniker. Adding a signature, cartouch or "beduh" onto a European or trade blade was a venerable practice all over the Middle East.
I kinda think it is not very old ( OK , older than John McCain or yours truly!), but not older than late 19th century.


I think we are thinking along similar lines Ariel,
Its a fairly 'workmanlike' good fighting sword, nothing fancy, but good steel, strong and sure.
I thought it might be Turkish military, second half 19thC.
As for the sig, as I said to Ward, I know nothing .
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Old 3rd July 2008, 04:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P.Abrera
Is the fact that the fuller runs under the guard rather than stops short of it with space for the cartouche on a flat section at the base of the blade unusual for this type of weapon?


Interesting point! I wonder if the blade has been remounted?
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Old 3rd July 2008, 05:03 PM   #8
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I personally do not think the hilt is Turkish.
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Old 3rd July 2008, 05:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
I personally do not think the hilt is Turkish.


I'm certainly no expert TVV I'm only guessing. Do you have any strong leanings as to where it might hail from?
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Old 3rd July 2008, 05:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
I'm certainly no expert TVV I'm only guessing. Do you have any strong leanings as to where it might hail from?


I am not absolutely certain, but the pommel with the cap looks Persian to me. But as pointed out it could also be Indian or Central Asian. I just do not think it is Ottoman, because of the hilt shape.
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Old 3rd July 2008, 05:31 PM   #11
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TVV is right its not Turkish probably had grips replaced in working life maybe the guard was modified at that time. Pommel is older maybe from another sword

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Old 4th July 2008, 09:49 PM   #12
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Hi Ward, so you thinking persian/middle east?

Oh, and Bump! ;-)
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Old 5th July 2008, 06:08 PM   #13
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Pommel India or Persia blade probably India. Nothing Turkish here I can see might have been made up for use or put together for show hard to say
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Old 5th July 2008, 08:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
Pommel India or Persia blade probably India. Nothing Turkish here I can see might have been made up for use or put together for show hard to say


Hi Ward,

I'm certain the handle elements (scales and guard) have been on it for the better part of the last C. The pommel may be a little later but even thats been there for a long time. I do wonder if the blade was remounted or traded and the back end was recut to accomodate the rivetted handle, but the proportions feel right when you weild it, and its certainly seen a lot of action in this form.
I've restored/repaired a lot of swords, even completely made them from scratch, and I get no feel of marriage or recent work from this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly 'bigging it up' as its certainly no sultans weapon. But it does feel completely honest to me.

Have you had any more thoughts on the cartouche?

Cheers
Gene
Hers some handle close-ups.
Its basic but feels honest



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Old 5th July 2008, 09:36 PM   #15
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Once you handle a few of these Indo Persian Turkish Afghan whatever you see that all that gunk under the crossguard is never found on original hilting. Not saying it wasnt used in battle just hard to tell. Almost never see wood grips on this type sword and the guard has defiantly had 3 out of 4 langet cut off. Also these swords were used until at least WWII in some parts of the world so yes probably put together like this for use just not how originally done. Im just saying you dont want to rely on this as typical period example. Looks like epoxy around the guard hard to tell from pics. Are you near musuems you can examine some older ones and compare. What is length of blade in a straight line?

Ward
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Old 5th July 2008, 10:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
Once you handle a few of these Indo Persian Turkish Afghan whatever you see that all that gunk under the crossguard is never found on original hilting. Not saying it wasnt used in battle just hard to tell. Almost never see wood grips on this type sword and the guard has defiantly had 3 out of 4 langet cut off. Also these swords were used until at least WWII in some parts of the world so yes probably put together like this for use just not how originally done. Im just saying you dont want to rely on this as typical period example. Looks like epoxy around the guard hard to tell from pics. Are you near musuems you can examine some older ones and compare. What is length of blade in a straight line?

Ward


LoL, epoxy! don't be mean ;-)

The brownish crud under the guard is of the same or similar organic softish resin that all Tulwars have filling the handles. The stuff that the Afghans use to fit just about everything together with.
Definately not any kind of two part epoxy or modern resin or filler.

I know the guard looks like three have been cut off (as per the usual form), but I've seen others without the upper two (on the handle side), and I did have (from old ebay auctions a long while ago) printouts of similar swords with one of the blade side ones removed or absent. Which is why I wondered if it was a deliberate ommission or removal?
Right, size.....
From the top edge of the blade where it meets the guard, in a straight line across the curve to the tip of the blade is 69.5cm (27 1/4 inches in old money)
If you follow the curve, the blade length is 72cm which is just under 28 1/2 "

Thanks Ward


Cheers
Gene
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Old 5th July 2008, 11:58 PM   #17
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If its the old resin you see on tulwars that may tell you where it was done up like this but whatever they used its not typical to put it under the langets. Islamic art is all about symetry those langets were broken off or removed at some time along the way. Dont think the blade is European they did that inlay before heat treat. Length is interesting if its a little on the heavy side thats a good clue too
good luck on it
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Old 6th July 2008, 10:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
I think it reads work of Kalb Ali but Dom could say for sure.
Arabic language but could be Persia India or Turk

you are very good Ward

it's mentionned "made by Ali" .... as ... usual

the digits in the square, after reflection don't seems to me as;
- a date
- a magic square

in fact, I doubt about the autenticity of all those marks
but, it's just "my" point of view, and I'm not an expert

+

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Old 6th July 2008, 10:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
you are very good Ward

it's mentionned "made by Ali" .... as ... usual

the digits in the square, after reflection don't seems to me as;
- a date
- a magic square

in fact, I doubt about the autenticity of all those marks
but, it's just "my" point of view, and I'm not an expert

+

Dom



Thanks Ward and Dom,

So to summarise what you have kindly figured out for me,

The Cartouche reads "amal Kalb Ali": 'work of Kalb ali'
but this may be a generic mark and not an indication of its true maker?
(as quality makers marks and names are often forged on swords)

And the Bedu is just a lucky square not a date or anything important?

We don't know exactly where its from but its probobly arabic/persian or perhaps Indian, not Turkish, and its had some reworking of the handle area done during its working life....

That about it?

Thanks
Gene

P.S
DOM! how about putting a big picture of your Khud in my 'avatars' thread, I'd love to see it!
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Old 6th July 2008, 11:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Thanks Ward and Dom,

So to summarise what you have kindly figured out for me,

The Cartouche reads "amal Kalb Ali": 'work of Kalb ali'
but this may be a generic mark and not an indication of its true maker?
(as quality makers marks and names are often forged on swords)

Hi Gene
for me the cartouche mention only "amal Ali" either "made by Ali"
but .... Ali seems to have producing thousands or more blades ...
or may be hundred of "Ali" (sic) produced many blades
those marks could be added at any time later, not a prove of "true" ..
unfortunately

+

Dom
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Old 7th July 2008, 06:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
Hi Gene
for me the cartouche mention only "amal Ali" either "made by Ali"
but .... Ali seems to have producing thousands or more blades ...
or may be hundred of "Ali" (sic) produced many blades
those marks could be added at any time later, not a prove of "true" ..
unfortunately

+

Dom



I understand, thanks very much for your help Dom.
Even knowing what it purports to be is a huge leap from not knowing anything.

So I'm very happpy! Thanks to everyone.
Gene
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