Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16th February 2021, 05:05 PM   #1
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,653
Default Pesh-kabz but from where/when?!

I have some ideas but I would appreciate your input!
Attached Images
    
mariusgmioc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2021, 05:18 PM   #2
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 869
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
I have some ideas but I would appreciate your input!


Congratulations, Marius!
Great pesh-kabz! I think this is India. Second half of the 19th century. This is a very good example!
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2021, 06:23 PM   #3
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,710
Default

I totally agree with Mahratt. Mughal India. Very nice too!
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2021, 05:37 AM   #4
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,653
Default

Mughal India, yes.

However, from all I know by 19th century the production of quality wootz pretty much stopped in India, and this blade displays a very nice Kara Taban pattern.

So my guess is that it is from around 1800.
mariusgmioc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2021, 05:33 PM   #5
Drabant1701
Member
 
Drabant1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Mughal India, yes.

However, from all I know by 19th century the production of quality wootz pretty much stopped in India, and this blade displays a very nice Kara Taban pattern.

So my guess is that it is from around 1800.


That is indeed a very nice dagger. Regarding age, the scabbard looks second half of the 19th century to me
As for the wootz very nice for sure. Bur as far as I can tell from books even nicer wootz was made in india up to the late 19th century. In Elgood´s Rajput arms and armour there are several blades of very high quality wootz that he dates to the second half of the 19th century, even late 19th century.
Drabant1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2021, 09:37 PM   #6
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drabant1701
That is indeed a very nice dagger. Regarding age, the scabbard looks second half of the 19th century to me
As for the wootz very nice for sure. Bur as far as I can tell from books even nicer wootz was made in india up to the late 19th century. In Elgood´s Rajput arms and armour there are several blades of very high quality wootz that he dates to the second half of the 19th century, even late 19th century.


I believe that these high quality wootz blades were re-mounted in the late 19th century.

Does anyone have precise information when wootz stopped being produced in India?!
mariusgmioc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2021, 04:17 AM   #7
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 869
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
I believe that these high quality wootz blades were re-mounted in the late 19th century.

Does anyone have precise information when wootz stopped being produced in India?!


Marius, I was specifically looking for information about this.
It is important to separate two issues.
1) there was a mass production of damask steel in India. It stopped in the middle of the 19th century
2) in separate principalities of India for maharajas and their entourage, arms and armor of wootz steel undoubtedly continued to be made until the end of the 19th century. It was impossible for such a short time to lose the skill of working with wootz steel. Perhaps, they stopped making wootz steel itself (as a material). But in the arsenals there were enough blanks (wootz ingots) from which it was possible to forge blades.
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2021, 09:01 AM   #8
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,053
Default

Hi Marius,
Very, very nice!
I agree with you: my first choice would be a remounted older blade; the second a totally old one protected from the elements in some european collection.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2021, 09:23 AM   #9
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Hi Marius,
I agree with you: my first choice would be a remounted older blade;


Yep. This is also my first choice.

With the observation that the old blade could have been remounted somewhere in the 20th century as well.

While I somehow agree with Mahratt that the wootz production didn't stop overnight, and there were old wootz ingots as well as older blades available, from all I know, the loss of wootz technology appears to have been a rather swift process, that spread over no more than a few decades. And this appears to have happened at the end of 18th century and the very beginning of 19th century.

And even if older wootz ingots and blades were available throughout 19th century, it was the technology of turning the wootz ingots into the final blade product that it was equally lost. That's why centuries old attempts to reforge older wootz blades have failed miserably, until the technology was PARTLY rediscovered by Anosov, Verhoeven and Pendray.
It should be noted that at the time Anosov, who is credited to be the first metalurgist to scientifically attempt to rediscover the technology, published his research on wootz steel in 1841, the technology was assumed lost since several decades.

However, the existance of an abundance of old wootz blades in Indian arsenals, could perfectly explain the presence of 19th century weapons with old, watery wootz blades as the technology of reshaping (through cold working processes), re-polishing and re-etching a blade remained unchanged. See below for example the photos of another Indian pesh-kabz (in almost mint condition) with what I believe to be a re-mounted blade.

Last but not least, I have seen and also owned Persian and Indian wootz blades quite certainly made in the first half of 19th century and they displayed the crystalline type of pattern, not the classic watery type. A very good example for this type of wootz would be the Persian khanjar illustrated in the thread at the link below.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=motif
Attached Images
  

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 1st March 2021 at 04:50 PM.
mariusgmioc is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:44 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.